The dreaded Swiss crust ring

[smylee grouch]

I read here so many reports of shooters getting a crust ring near the breech, especially when using Swiss powder. I have been using Swiss in 1&1/2, 2, and 3f for years and haven't run into this problem. When shooting in chunk gun, X-stix and light bench I used Teflon coated patching so had to wipe between shots so that would have hindered any crust build up. But when hunting I use Bear oil for a lube and seldom will shoot enuf shots to form any crust. When working up loads for my 62 cal. I shot 40 shots in one session with no crust , wiping between 10 shot groups after changing  targets. So I'm wondering if lube type, ball patch combo, weather as in humidity or some other factor is causing this problem?

[Scota4570]

I always get an accumulation of fouling in the breech area.  I thought it was normal.   The powder brand does not matter.  IF I use soaking wet patches and do not wipe the hard fouling builds up enough to feel with the cleaning patch in five shots.  I wonder about he never wipe crowd.  Wouldn't the fouling acuminate in breech section where the ball never seats below?   The accumulation would take up space and the ball would eventually seat higher than the mark on the rod?  I have a 30 cal under hammer that can only be shot  so many times  before breech fouling interferes with ignition. 

[Daryl]

That's exactly what happens and when using flint or percussion, NEVER an ignition problem, even with OVER 100 shots fired, with no cleaning, wiping or swabbing occurring.
As shooting progresses, the mark on the rod climbs up out of the barrel when the ball is seated with the same 'thump' as normal. The ballistics remain exactly the same, as well.
Stands to reason that if you don't wipe the breech, fouling MUST build up there. How could it not? The area where the ball sits and forward gets WIPED every shot while being
loaded - how could it not get wiped? it gets wiped right to the bottom of the grooves and corners. When there is compression of the patch in each groove, each groove gets wiped.
I clean my guns AFTER I get home and never at the range, unless it is a multiple day shoot, then after the shooting, then a beer or two are over. THAT's when to clean. When
shooting, I am there to shoot, not to clean.
The cleaning bucket gets grey-ish after cleaning. It is darker grey after cleaning the .69, just due to the volume of the bore I assume, even though I shoot the same amount of powder in my
Beck .50 & the .50 has a much longer barrel. The difference is not great, though. There is a huge difference between the larger bores, and the .36 that shoots only 35gr. of powder. It's also
the easiest shooting, especially with bore sized balls. The smaller the ball, the less lead there is to move. The water bucket after cleaning the .36, is drinkable. It will taste somewhat sulfur(y).
The solids will sink to the bottom.
I grew up drinking sulfur water out at the farm where I hunted from about 10yrs., old on. Some people called it mineral water. It was well water, likely from a aquifer running over sulfur deposits.

[Spalding]

Been using Swiss almost exclusively for the last year since GOEX was out of production. Never noticed any difference, in fact since I started using 50/50 Dawn and water earlier this year for lube, I’d say it’s even less, along with easier cleanup.

Bob

[recurve]

I use mutton tallow and seems to help prevent the hard ring . I dip the patching in double boiler and squeeze out extra wrapping strips or cut patches in old pill bottles my loads are 70-80grns swiss 3f or 2f


the only down side is in very cold weather I need to keep patching in an inner pocket

[wolf]

i have been pushing dawn dish soap water lube for well over a year. i get mostly snubbed and ridiculed, LOL, but i can shoot indefinitely and never "swab" a bore. a friend and form member i shoot with "mulebrain" showed me this secret 2 years ago, and ol time shooter showed him. i use nothing else except when hunting. if you try it, you will never get a crud ring again no matter the powder. i use about 60-40 mix soak the patch and load. oh, and as far as accuracy, tack driving,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Dphariss]

Some barrels seem to suffer from this. Others not so much. I have a barrel I may cup the breech on to see if this solves the issue. I have one from the same maker that has this issue. Maybe I should cup it to see if this works. Just an experiment. It moves the vent toward the middle of the charge rather than at the rear.

[Dphariss]

i have been pushing dawn dish soap water lube for well over a year. i get mostly snubbed and ridiculed, LOL, but i can shoot indefinitely and never "swab" a bore. a friend and form member i shoot with "mulebrain" showed me this secret 2 years ago, and ol time shooter showed him. i use nothing else except when hunting. if you try it, you will never get a crud ring again no matter the powder. i use about 60-40 mix soak the patch and load. oh, and as far as accuracy, tack driving,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Any water based lube should accomplish this. I just don’t care for water/spit patch lube and I have a valid reason. The problem with soaps/detergents and they can be at some level corrosive. I suspect that Windex 1 part to 3 parts water will do the same thing. I used to use this (the formula with vinegar) to clean BPCRs when I was shooting a lot of such things. And I used to shoot a lot with spit patches in MLs when I was a kid but then one ends uo with a ring of wet fouling where the ball sets.
I suspect the Dawn will make a lower friction lube than straight water. Some barrels like a “slick” lube and some may like a high friction lube. Sperm Whale Oil is higher friction than Neatfoot Oil but its no longer available. Some barrels will shoot this better than slick lubes. In my “chunk gun” I use patch material soaked in WS cutting oil then allowed to dry (let the water evaporate) 1:5 mix oil:water IIRC. Have not shot this rifle in some time. AND this requires wiping every shot.

[Daryl]

Over the years I have used a WIDE variety of lubes and I've never required wiping or swabbing. I have not used a dry lube as this would defeat my purpose of shooting
without having to wipe or swab. I do not shoot the same competition's Dan shoots, thus, no need for wiping between shots.

[Tumbledown]

I suspect it is your patch (Teflon) or lube. Black powder doesn't like synthetic lubes or fabrics. It will react with it and leave a hard crust.

[smylee grouch]

I shot a lot of Teflon patches and never had a crust ring because you have to wipe between shots when using it. 

[recurve]

when I used a lube call gato - bees wax- paraffin wax-and tallow, I would get a hard ring, I suspect the paraffin was the cause
I switched to all tallow and have much less problem when I do wipe I use windex fallowed by alcohol 91% and dry patch

[Daryl]

Straight water, or alcohol and water(WWWF) makes a good lube for many of us for target shooting.  The waxes are used to stiffen a lube. They are not lube in and of themselves - only
a commodity to make an oil or grease stiffer/thicker as needed in a groove bullet lube.
I've never heard of using both in a patch lube, let alone a bullet lube. I tried using Vaseline and Paraffin as a lube but it was GROSSLY inferior in my barrel, to Vaseline and beeswax. mix, which worked a treat as a slug lube in my .45 with grooved lubricated bullets & also in the BP suppository rifles and cast bullets in modern rifles too with the new fandangeled powders.

[john bohan]

I had to switch to schutzen from goex thats when I got the ring, I had to seat my ball by ramming the ramrod against a 4x4 in my shop.

[Maven]

It's not the GOEX, John.

[john bohan]

No I think it was because I changed powder. Never had trouble with goex.

[Clark Badgett]

I got the ring with schutzen also. But never got it with goex.

[Daryl]

I've been using Schutzen 2F for a year now, in both my .69 and .50.
No crud or fouling ring - ever. This "ring" is an experience I have never had, although before about mid 1973 I did have to learn how "to load all day without having to wipe the bore".
The light came on about that time and was a combination of things, crown condition and patch material. I already had the .005" under bore size ball down pat.  That ball size was
drilled into me by my old late friend and mentor, Lester H. Hawkes of Walcott Road, B.C., formerly from Kalispel, Montana.

[Mike Brooks]

Fouling problems are generally caused by lube issues. Type and/or amount. The more lube the better.

[Daryl]

Can't see any pictures on the site, nor my own, but these barrels produce ZERO fouling. Loading is easy, start of the day to the last one loaded.
You can see the groove depth and width of both lands and grooves.

[Joe S.]

Never had issues with swiss powders, but the old goex was a different story. My .58 would get a crust ring around eight inches down from the muzzle, Could see it with a bore light, both before and after, clean, other than the usual fouling from a few shots, thought that was kinda odd...I'm hearing the new goex burns a lot cleaner

[Clark Badgett]

I've been using Schutzen 2F for a year now, in both my .69 and .50.
No crud or fouling ring - ever. This "ring" is an experience I have never had, although before about mid 1973 I did have to learn how "to load all day without having to wipe the bore".
The light came on about that time and was a combination of things, crown condition and patch material. I already had the .005" under bore size ball down pat.  That ball size was
drilled into me by my old late friend and mentor, Lester H. Hawkes of Walcott Road, B.C., formerly from Kalispel, Montana.

You do realize the ring o crust is actually where the ball seats on the powder with every loading doncha? Had no problems with getting the thin patched ball to that point. Found it while cleaning after shooting was done. I keep the Schutzen in my unmentionables now. Works fine in those.

[Daryl]

I have never felt a ring of crust or anything else while cleaning.
The breech goes into the bucket and I run a wet patch down to the breech plug. No crust. The fouling that builds up in the breech does not slow
the patch getting to the plug on the first push.
Schutzen is the only 2F I have right now, about 10 pounds of it. When that's gone, I will try whatever else is available.
I think I also have about 10 pounds, of mixed Old Enysford and Schutzen 3F. Got a bunch of 1F GOEX still, which shoots
well in the singe shot BP CtG rifle. I also have a couple pounds of 1 1/2F Swiss.
I found in the .69, I had to use more of it to get the same POI as GOEX. It burns nicely for me, gives decent accuracy and as clean shooting as GOEX
ever was. I see no real difference, just in the amount I have to use. In the .50 flinter, seems to me I had to use 90gr. of it, rather than my old load of 85gr. GOEX.
In all of my rifles, I am currently using the thin .021" denim patch. I used to use a .030" patch in the .69, as it wanted that for 100yard and further shooting. Since
I'm not shooting that far, I can get away with lighter charges and the thin patch. I'm using a .495" ball in the .50, which has square .010" deep rifling. The .69, has
.012" rifling and gets by with the same patch and a .682" ball, .008" smaller than the bore. In tests I can actually go right to 140gr. 2F and the .021" patches are
 reusable if given some more lube. For some of the postal matches, I've been using old patches I've picked up. Denim is almost $40.00 per meter here. A square meter
is 39" each side.

[Clark Badgett]

Daryl, as much as I would have loved using a thick denim patch, the .535 ball wouldn’t hammer in even with a .015 patch. In fact we broke the wooden ball of the short started trying to get it to start in 2 different guns. Yes, I probably crowned and polished the muzzle transition as you recommended. We finally just loaded the .530 ball and wet .010 patches and had great groups, easy loading for the rest of the day.

[Daryl]

I can only think the lead must have been alloyed and not at least plumber pure lead, which is 98.6% pure.
Or:
Perhaps the bore is not .54".

I've loaded bore sized or even larger balls in .36 (.360"), .40 (.398" bore), .50 (.08" oversize ball) and my .,69(.690"), all with at least .021" denim and the .32 and .40 with .0235" mattress ticking.
I do not understand how or why you could not load .005" undersized and a .021" patch, let alone a .015" patch. I just don't get it. Sorry - does not compute.