AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: foresterdj on December 10, 2023, 03:06:17 AM
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Working on a couple jaegers this winter (overreaching my skill level to be sure.). Some issues on lock functioning, here is background.
When lock was apart for inletting, I smoothed/honed the edges of springs, inside lock face and other areas where parts might rub to 400 grit, in some cases 600 grit.
Made sure designed bearing surfaces/faces were smoothed honed to 600 grit.
applied light gun oil to moving parts when re-assembled.
did tests both bevel up and bevel down.
Flint is English nominal 7/8 X 1, actually about 0.85 X 1.1"
I used 2 pieces of leather to set flint back as much as it would go, to contact with the screw.
In both orientations, when fired from the full cock position, the flint will stop near bottom of frizen, with the frizen never flipping open. Here are some pictures.
Bevel up test:
(https://i.ibb.co/Xp5XD11/E4-down.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WFzn0ZZ)
Here showing the flint position to pan with cock fully down, looks good to me.
Here at half cock.
and at full cock
(https://i.ibb.co/zN0L4Gv/E4-at-half.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CWTXHhG)
(https://i.ibb.co/f2y07Dh/E4-at-full.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XbKJTYh)
Here when fired, and stuck before clearing frizen.
(https://i.ibb.co/7n974ZW/E1-fired.jpg) (https://ibb.co/48QBdXT)
Same result with bevel down, I will just show the fired result.
(https://i.ibb.co/DrcB07T/E2-fired.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SfYkFKG)
Some observations, the bevel up would contact the frizen about 1/3 of the way up from bottom, the bevel down contacts frizzen way up 3/4 +. Bevel up, if frizen would trip open, would place frizen edge at near pan center, bevel down puts flint edge past pan when down, that is, if frizen would open and hammer would actually go all the way down. Also, with bevel down, flint contact seems to be close to 90 degree through most of the throw.
I sent a question on this to the manufacturer, but thought I would seek thoughts from the many builders here.
What should I look at next, to try and get the lock(s) functioning correctly?
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Did it work before you took it apart?
I’m no lock maker but from what I have read is that perhaps 1) the feather spring may be too stiff or, 2) the sole toe of the frizzen may be the culprit and may be worked on to enable the frizzen to spring completely open. It might need to be rounded or even a little bit removed.
This will be good to follow.
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Good points from Bob on your springs. Check the frizzen movement by hand to insure smooth, freedom of movement. But my main suggestion is moving the flint forward in the jaws. If you can, move it within a 1/10" of the frizzen unless this causes the flint to strike your pan.
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Is it possible that flint strike is too square on frizzen? Would flint strike at more of downward angle help open frizen? :-\
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The frizzen should "snap open" at some point. Again, my guess is the frizzen
soletoe, but personally I would wait to get other ideas before I started to take a small file to the metal. But rounding and polishing cant hurt I think. Then put some grease (not oil) on the contact point of frizzen sole and spring and see if it helps a little.
I dont think the flint angle or bevel orientation would matter since many locks with just a rounded, worn flint will pop that frizzen open.
Good luck- you'll get it.
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I'm thinking the flint should scrape all the way down and slice minute shavings into pan. Too direct a hit gouged the frizzen, wasting frizzen face and not directing the first sparks where you want them. :-\
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Even with the springs out of balance with the lock the frizzen should still snap open. It looks to me as if the flint is too far away from the frizzen face. I suggest placing a toothpick or 2 behind the flint to test the theory. At half cock I want mine just far enough away that the flint and frizzen cannot accidentaly touch each other.
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Hard to be sure without it in hand, but probably a weak mainspring
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The frizzen should snap open at about the same time the flint hits the bottom of the face. 30-45deg. when pushed open slowly. If not you can stone a slight bevel on the back of the toe to make it snap over. Then polish the surfaces to a mirror finish, and grease the spring/toe contact. I haven't seen a lock yet that didn't benefit from a good contact point polishing. Or at least it made me feel better. ;) I don't oil my locks. Oil runs into the wood. I use a toothpick to apply grease. I can't see any in your pics. After that you can move the flint out to about 1/8" or so from the frizzen.
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foresterd: There are several observations and several suggestions. First that balance between cock tension ( full forward )
and frizzen ( fully closed ). The amount of poundage to pull the cock off of full forward should be twice that of pulling the frizzen off of full closed. This is a standard formula for correct lock geometry and function. Also at the point of the flint getting to the bottom of the frizzen face the frizzen should snap forward. It could be that the cam on the toe of the frizzen needs to have some polishing and adjustment where it meets the feather spring. Using your engineering skills decide what needs to be modified to accommodate the snap forward. Some frizzen cams need to have a little metal relieved forward and some to the rear. As to measuring cock tension use a spring operated fish scale to find the LBS. of both frizzen and cock. Also the cock tension should be the strongest fully forward and decrease as you pull to full bent position. Or full cock position.
Most lock makers fail to design this geometry into their configuration. One other observation I noticed with your photos. The cutting edge of the flint should be no more than 1/16"- 1/8" away from the frizzen face. I hope this helps and don't be afraid to ask for more help if needed. Hugh Toenjes P.S. I do not use grease to lube my locks. Grease tends to slow the mechanism down. I use a small amount of synthetic oil mixed with graphite but accent on small amount.
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Are you sure the frizzen is not rebounding back into the flint, Forester?
It can happen and happens awful fast!
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I agree with Darkhorse that the flint is too far back. Instead of adjusting to the pan, adjusst to the closed frizzen with the lock at halfcock; the flint suould almost, but not quite touch the frizzen. This is the easiest approach to try.
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You can make the main spring stronger for testing with a plate
(https://i.ibb.co/c2GXNMy/E1-fired.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j3cZLB8)
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Copy the URL of the video then paste it in your post
Then others can click on the URL to view the video.
Dennis
Filmed video, no rebound that I can see. I am guessing a video could be posted elsewhere and linked here, but I do not know how to do that.
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I have this same lock on one of My Jaegers.
(https://i.ibb.co/b7Cyc6f/IMG-0683.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9G1fQpM)
First let me say that I never had the problem you describe with your lock. I would say that the frizzen spring may be your problem.
Simple way to figure this out is to remove the spring and see if the frizzen snaps open.
I had the same problem on a large Siler. I polished the frizzen spring and heated it to a blue and tried it took me two tries to weaken the spring so that the frizzen would snap open.
As far as getting a flint within a 1/16 th. or just touching is going to be difficult unless you find some extra long 7/8th flints. You will be lucky to get the flints within a 1/4. The flint will stike near the top of the frizzen and scrape all the way dow.
This is also the case with Chamber's Jaeger lock.
I would try the least invasive cures first.
(https://i.ibb.co/pfpwJGy/IMG-0695.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9bjgszt)
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The amount of poundage to pull the cock off of full forward should be twice that of pulling the frizzen off of full closed. This is a standard formula for correct lock geometry and function.
Thanks for that valuable piece of information. It could help me sort out a troublesome large Siler that has spent the last few years in a drawer. As foresterdj has mentioned, one needs to know where on the cock and frizzen to measure the pull weight. Would it be measured between the jaws on the cock and where on the frizzen would one take a measurement?
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I have never measured that poundage but I'm thinking hook onto where ever you can as far up as you can. This might be easy on the cock but finding a way to attach that spring scale to the top of the frizzen might be challenging. Thoughts and ideas welcome.
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Interesting and thanks for taking the effort to do this. It looks so far that the poundage is ABOUT half of cock weight for the frizzen weight as stated before.
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That is a great explanation and the results appear to speak for themselves. It would not have occurred to me to use that logical approach to find the test point on the frizzen. My thinking was along the line of equal distance from the pivot points. Thanks for posting.
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Check the pan arm (bridle) and see if there is a drag there.My knowledge of cast main springs is zero and I used to get requests to replace them but never got involved with that Idea. I am also wondering about the hole for the tumbler in the plate,Looks a bit too far back to me and that would cause a low strike from the
flint or maybe the "cock"is too short which can create the same condition.I have seen a good many locks that have been assembled by people who have no real idea what it is they are putting together.Polish the ramp on the tumbler where the mainspring slides AND the area of full contact on the spring and a speck of STP or other "SuperSlick" on the ramp.
Bob Roller
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It sounds like your frizzen weight is about right but the cock weights are way off. The poundage should decease dramatically as you get to full cock position. This for two reasons first it lessons the pressure on the sear nose in the full cock notch which in turn lessons the trigger pull # and as the cock travels toward the frizzen it will gather momentum creating more sparks and be able to push the frizzen fully forward. This is a common problem with modern lock makers. They do not make the hook of the main spring long enough to ride up on the shoe of the tumbler and get as close as possible to tumbler axel. The closer the hook gets to the tumbler axel the less poundage on the cock at full cock. 3#-5#at the most.
Check an old original well made German or English lock and you will see this geometry in play. it is actually a lesson in physics 101. Now having said all of this - yes there is a solution which I have done on many contemporary locks . You can reposition the anchor pin of the main spring closer to the tumbler which will allow the hook to ride up the tumbler shoe like it should. Sometimes only 1/6" will make all the difference. Then all you have to do is fill in the old anchor hole with a soft rivet and you are all good to go. I hope this all makes sense.
Hugh Toenjes
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My locks are well polished at points where metal contacts metal and fishing reel grease is applied with a toothpice to those points. My tumbler is oiled, again with a toothpick dipped in oil and a applied just where I want it. The locks are smooth and fast. But there was one lock that jarred me and the rifle everytime it was shot. It was bad enough to really spread the groups out. To correct this my solution was to thin the frizzen spring until the jarring went away. This occured between 4 and 5 pounds of pressure, measured with a trigger pull gauge hooked over the top of the frizzen. Now my frizzens open between 3&.750 and 4.0 pounds of pressure. No more jarring.
I would think your frizzen should open with 4 pounds of pressure measured this way. If not check for binding of the frizzen screw or contact of the side of the frizzen with the barrel. Or there could be something out of spec. with the hammer.
I find measuring this way is a quick way of testing the spring poundage against a known value.
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Best analysis I’ve seen. I’d be getting a replacement lock. If I HAD to make this one work I think the cock should be a tiny bit taller and lower jaw angled down more. If simply bent down after straightening, flint strike would be lower on the frizzen than I would like. But obviously other locks of this exact design work, confounding the idea there’s design problem of large proportions.
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Interesting thread so far. Nice observations and good photography also a good grasp of the computer.! Anyway right off the bat I add this comment: Every contemporary lock right out of the box that I have ever seen has to be" tuned"! Yes even Kibler ( sorry Jim ) I have worked with many, many different locks they all need adjustment on some level!! It is hard to correct this particular problem from pictures and notations. However if all of the suggestions were followed this lock should work! The nubbin is called a "cam" and it works on a "over center" principle. I have had to reshape those before as well. Wish I was there and had this lock in my hands . I have had locks sent to me for diagnosing similar problems only cost to the client was the postage. If it is an easy and short fix - also no cost to the client. Just saying. Hugh Toenjes
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Again, I am no expert, but looking at that frizzen spring- the end really ramps up! All the ones I see have a flatter line to them. It looks like the toe gets no relief from the drag it’s getting from the spring which would enable it springing up due to less pressure on it
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I shot a gun with this lock exclusively for 8 years. It's main problem is the flint ends up so far into the pan the edge gets blown off dull with the gases from the vent hole. It is very fast, just awfully hard on flints. I used Brownell's "Gunslick" for lube and lot's of it which resolved the problems you're having. Rebounding was always a problem for this lock, but I learned to live with it. All in all it worked and was fast when I paid attention to the condition of the flint edge. I tied a National Flint shotgun record with it at friendship in '86.
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It is amazing how identical locks from the same manufacturer can have so radically different performance levels. I get great service from the flints on this Davis lock. I have to knap the flint about every 15 to 20 shots. I get about 50 to 60 shots out of a flint with this lock. Sometimes you get a great flint that will exceed the norm and occasionally you get a flint that requires more frequent knapping and you are lucky to get 30 shots out of it.
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Seems to me in the above photos the flint is hitting way too low.
I'd reverse it (flat side up) and see what happens, but fully realize you likely tried that!
I have One Chambers Early Ketland that rebounds. None of the others do. I think I fixed it but have to see what I did as I don't remember.
Yours cant be rebounding if the cock is hung up on the frizzen without finishing its stroke.
As you know, if the hammer (frizzen) is too soft it can hang up.
Best,
Rich.
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I also had one of those locks 30+ or - years ago and had good luck with mine. Never kept track of number of shots per flint but it was ok I thought at the time.
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Different thickness & angle of the hump flat of the actual flints will give different striking heights on the hammer, when the bevel is down, sometimes by quite a LOT.
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I employed this lock on my personal Jaeger rifle, and it served me very well for many years. But over the course of time, I tinkered with it to make it better, so here are some of my observations.
First, I used 7/8" flints. That's 7/8" in length not width. I shot them bevel up and bevel down, according to the way they looked when clamped in the jaws. Of note, particular to this thread, the gap between the flint and the frizzen needs to be as close as you can get it, without interfering with the frizzen closing on the pan. With my own rifle, I had issues with the flint striking the pan when I set the flint close as I've described. So I did something quite radical. I clamped the tumbler in a machinist's vise, heated the tumbler axle red with an Oxy/acetylene torch and rotated the axle back a few degrees. After this treatment, the flint no longer struck the pan. The same effect might have been accomplished by adding a shim of steel to the inside shoulder of the cock where it strikes the top of the lock plate at rest, thereby impeding its forward rotation.
I never had issues like the op with the frizzen not fully opening. On my lock, the frizzen snapped open when the pan cover was about 3/8" off the pan. And it never rebounded - ever. If I was dealing with your lock, I would file on the top leaf of the frizzen spring some, then re-polish, to reduce the force it applies to the toe of the frizzen. Balancing the springs, is likely all this lock needs. But move the flint forward in the jaws until it almost touches the frizzen face.
My lock threw sparks like a cutting torch, and the rifle accounted for many honours in competition, and many heads of game including mule deer, black bears, and moose. It was the perfect hunting rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/S0kCcfq/DSCN5931.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RPXwNjL)
(https://i.ibb.co/jkwkzTL/DSCN1051.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pjKjQx3)
The first picture I took while I was moose hunting, and was a little bored waiting for Bullwinkle. Notice the flint is well worn (but trusted) and the bevel is down. The second one is in my back yard, and shows the flint bevel up. You may see damage to the pan in this shot from the flint striking the pan. The flint leather in both pics is from the cuff of a work glove. The leather needs to be thick enough to mold itself to the nuances of the rough flint, grip the teeth of the jaws of the cock, and cushion the blow to the flint as it strikes the frizzen.
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I have just gone through this same issue with a swivel barrelled pistol I'm playing with. the mainspring didn't have enough whack to tip the frizzens out of the way. So I filed the top leaves of the two frizzen springs, first with a course rasp, then a single cut bastard file, then 80 grit, and finally, with 180 grit aluminum oxide cloth abrasive.
Now the lock sparks well, and the frizzens pop open as they should.
So again, if this were my project, I'd balance the springs by removing steel from the top leaf of the frizzen spring. You can be quite radical here. The frizzen spring only needs to hold the frizzen closed on the pan to keep the priming from disappearing, and also stiff enough to prevent bounce back or rebounding. I think you'll find that that answers the problem. I have no idea what that 1" dimension you have illustrated in a lot of your pictures is all about?
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Did you try it with the feather spring removed?
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You might want to consider ordering a new mainspring also. I would think yours might be weak.
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Not yet. Will give the no frizzen spring try tomorrow.
Also, I ordered the alternate cock available for this lock. It seems to orient the flint a little different to fizzen, it should be here later in the week. Will report on it later.
These things are sure a balancing act. Get the frizzen spring too weak and the frizzen rebounds. Best of luck. You’ve got an analytical mind and will figure it out.
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It still looks like the flint is hitting the frizzen far too low in the above phots, Foereter.
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It still looks like the flint is hitting the frizzen far too low in the above phots, Foereter.
Agree but if move forward or a longer flint is used it digs up the pan. A real conundrum unless one bends the frizzen forward or replaced it. Bevel down would be my first fix. And, this same lock model works well for many. Inscrutable.
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I can’t be sure but from the pictures provided it seems the flint is striking the frizzen quite low. I have found this often creates a situation where the frizzen locks up before it completely opens. This can be addressed by a slight upward bending of the cock, or a slight rearward bending of the frizzen face. Both should be done hot. The polishing, and slight reshaping of the frizzen spring, and the contact point of the frizzen might be enough to get the frizzen to follow through. Good luck.
Hungry Horse
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I still think that the flint is to far away from the frizzen face! I suggest a longer flint or move it forward. If it contacts the shoulders of the pan select a narrower flint. I like the cutting edge of the flint to enter the pan as a general rule, but not to make contact with the bottom of the pan or the shoulders of the pan. My continuing 2 cents worth. Hugh Toenjes
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Since the flint stops right at the bottom of the frizzen, would some very slight relief of the frizzen face right at that bottom point help the lock complete its cycle? Say only a few thousands with a stone to keep it smooth. :-\
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It still looks like the flint is hitting the frizzen far too low in the above phots, Foereter.
Way too low for me too, Richard.
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It still looks like the flint is hitting the frizzen far too low in the above phots, Foereter.
Way too low for me too, Richard.
Mismatched or miscalculated parts will guarantee a non functional lock or anything else.
Bob Roller
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Sounds better. Thanks for the up date and detailed run down on your adventure. :) ;)
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I'd Still run it flat side up.
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I'm not being negative, but it seems to me that you must be an engineer. Had you removed the frizzen spring at the outset, it would have told you that it was the culprit. Sometimes we tend to overcomplicate a problem. Always look for the simplest solution first. Eliminate them as the source of the problem before going on to more radical solutions. Just my opinion.
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First thing first. It isn't positioned correctly in the jaws of the cock. Move your flint forward till it is almost touching the frizzen at 1/2 cock . Then lower it down and make sure it isn't hitting the bottom of the pan. Now try to spark it.
Also a major problem with people getting their lock to spark if the flint isn't really tight in the cock!! Make sure it really tight.
Darrin
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Foresterdj did you mean full cock where you said half cock?
Tumblers are designed to give maximum leverage when the cock is at rest, but springs give maximum power when released from more compression. I’m sure someone has graphed it out.
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Forester,
There is no such thing as upside down with a flint. As many work one way as the other way.
Flat side up will keep the flint out the pan and get a Much longer stroke.
That's why I have been harping at you to turn it over for the last while!
All the best,
Rich.