AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Brittowner69 on March 13, 2024, 04:18:31 AM
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I just dropped my .54 Allen Martin off with Bob Hoyt to have him re bore the barrel. The barrel is a 42’ swamped rice barrel. I am having him re bore it in gain twist but wanted opinions on .58 vs .60 cal. I’m leaning towards .60 but figured I’d throw it out here for discussion. Thanks
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Almost a horse apiece.
Hunting large game? Cape buffalo? Tree rats?
Just punching holes in paper?
Recoil sensitive?
Casting or buying your balls?
I assume you have the wall thickness for .60 cal.?
Those are things I would consider in my choice.
Fleener
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ask Bobby he was shooting a 60 gain twist(as was Mark Weader) at the frozen toe shoot
(https://i.ibb.co/pv5P3dT/Mark-w-Bobby-Hoyt-Fred-miller.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BVFPgBJ)
Allen Martin also said in his interview that his hunting rifle Thor is a 60
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeFyuuW2uJ8
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gain in 50
(https://i.ibb.co/HqMqzLb/DSC03775.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sqDqwpN)
(https://i.ibb.co/gT2DmRJ/DSC03777.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NjvLtyK)
in 54
(https://i.ibb.co/Y7Fkf3P/DSC03411.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0jRMYcm)
I like my hoyt gain twist rifles
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The one thing that will determine Mr. Hoyts ability to bore the barrel will be the breechplug. It needs a shoulder to seat against.
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I think I would have sent the rifle back to Allen Martin and had him install another barrel so you would have both when you were done. This would have also have protected your investment better.
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Excellent point.
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I'd stay with the .54. I don't see any advantage to going bigger than that.
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Looking at the potential to go from 218gr. ball (.526") to a 315gr. ball .595". That's almost 50% heavier ball. Not insignificant.
With heavier ball, heavier recoil. With larger diameter ball & heavier powder charge (usually) to get the same accuracy = even more recoil.
.60 cal. is still pretty small. The .682" balls I shoot in my rifle, weigh 482gr. & it shoots quite well, but most people don't like having that much fun. ;)
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Bobby rebored my Allen Martin from 45 to 50
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I would have the maker modify - I know it's traditional to have a story - Although I would much rather hand the to someone and this was built by _______ he is the only smith to lay hand on this firearm---- End of story . Disclaimer : I never modify - change firearms from Original I buy for what it is .
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First off 58 and 60 were not common in American flintlock rifles, even 54 was far less common in Eastern rifles even in the Rev-War era. Shooting deer with a 60 caliber is just over kill and frankly a waste of powder and lead. But people ought to do what they want to do. Honestly? If you need something bigger than 54 you need a 20 bore. And if the barrel has underlugs and a rear sight dove tail you have to be VERY award of wall thickness given the steels used in most ML barrels in the US. Trust me you don’t want a thin wall at a dovetail I have seen this cause a “leak”. So a true 60 cal bore with .010” deep grooves is actually .620 then we have to ask is the bore concentric with the external dimension? So if you have a 1” barrel with a .050 dovetail we have 1- .620=.38 /2= .190-.050=140. Now this is OK, I guess. But if we get into swamps it might not be OK. But most people don’t pay much attention I guess. If we have 50 cal 44” B weight barrel and put a .040-.050 dove tail(s) in the waist and you prove it with double powder and double ball with FFF (remembering that the proof powder used in England, from my reading was fine grained and a pretty hot formula) you may well be able to “find” the dovetails with a tight patch on a short bearing surface jag. But most people don’t pay attention. This BTW in a gun barrel quality carbon steel alloy that will tolerate 50000 psi smokeless in 1” tapered to .900” at 30” 45 caliber with no issues in ballistic laboratory testing WITH a deep dovetail about 9” from the breech. And its not even modern (since the 1930s) US military spec steel for small arms. I don’t dovetail light swamps in 50 cal in the waist anymore. So I would not make a swamp, unless pretty heavy, in 60 caliber. And I see no advantage of having a 58 over a 54 and I have hunted with both.
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All of that being said I know people who love .60 and shoot them very well. I have made several .60s and they have all been swamped. I never sweated it.
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I'd stay with the .54. I don't see any advantage to going bigger than that.
Neither did anyone else in America for the most part, back in the day.
I actually looked into this some years ago. But in this one is at the mercy of who ever guesstimates the bore size,
(https://i.ibb.co/QmYHhNp/uuid-0573929-A-18-C0-4236-BA34-C9-D34-C373392-library-1-type-1-mode-1-loc-true-cap-true.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GPCMG2n)
(https://i.ibb.co/X4vWhTn/uuid-DCF5-C477-6201-403-C-984-E-5410-B86-B6-E1-C-library-1-type-1-mode-1-loc-true-cap-true.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9vCpFjx)
(https://i.ibb.co/7C51Lnn/uuid-067138-AD-4799-4-CB7-BC8-C-AF7207-AB50-A5-library-1-type-1-mode-1-loc-true-cap-true.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xL07d11)
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Bobby Hoyt said it's Elk rifle (he use to use great plains bullet in 54 , no longer made)to hunt elk with his 54 gain twist and round ball for woods walk & Silhouettes shoots
I can tell you his 60 really rings the steel and when he missed the silhouette chick low it (60 cal ball) went through the railroad tie making a very nice round HOLE all the way through it , we could see sun light
it's no doubt when he hits the gong ! with my 50 we hear ping ,his 60 it's a BONG!
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Deleted.
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I think I would have sent the rifle back to Allen Martin and had him install another barrel so you would have both when you were done. This would have also have protected your investment better.
I don't understand how that would affect the value. Did ALLEN Marting make the barrel, I don't think so. The barrel is going to be rebored that is all. It would not affect the value any more than taking the barrel out of the stock for cleaning.
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All of that being said I know people who love .60 and shoot them very well. I have made several .60s and they have all been swamped. I never sweated it.
I tend to sweat things. Seen too much not too.
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Allen martin had used a 45 Getz barrel for my gun(#117) but a former owner had left a spit patch (made a rust spot) so the owner before me sent to mr Hoyt had it bored out to 50 As Did Brad from cabin creek with a 45 Yorktown(green mtn barrel #269) that had returned to him from estate, he had built the rifle and found the same sort of spit patch rust ring So he the builder sent it to Mr Hoyt for a rebore to 50 then I purchased it from Brad
Now with that said Allen Martin does buy some of his barrels from mr Hoyt
(https://i.ibb.co/dGSv2Bc/allen-martin-3rd-from-top.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/P4bpB1c/allen-martin-muzzle.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wCbHDpS)
(https://i.ibb.co/dBjRSRN/DSC03618.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F6mF9FQ)
image hosting online (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/W3L4yKY/IMG-0592-6931.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mB3VqzM)
(https://i.ibb.co/N2fdvSb/IMG-0594.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HTRfSd3)
(https://i.ibb.co/Kh4kMPt/DSC03384.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dMCqdTN)
so one owner had a rifle rebored and one builder also did both MR Hoyts work
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I don't understand how that would affect the value. Did ALLEN Marting make the barrel, I don't think so. The barrel is going to be rebored that is all. It would not affect the value any more than taking the barrel out of the stock for cleaning.
Probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard.... :o
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I cant make heads or tails of your targets. You have posted the same ones many times. Do you have newer ones easy to understand?
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those are my load workup targets, I don't care where the group is on the target as long as is tighter than another load, then I record the best for each rifle later I adjust the sights to hit aim point at the yardage I choose the green mtn with the green /orange target is sighted for 100 yrds . I usually start a 50 @70grns swiss3f and adjust the load up and down till I get the right tight grouping (at least twice)
(https://i.ibb.co/2nycf41/DSC03040.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Rv9QVwk)
heres the green mtn 50yrd workup load
(https://i.ibb.co/n3Frb6h/DSC03160.jpg) (https://ibb.co/B49Ltc8)
here is the 100yrd same load but was high (2shot group) then I filed rear sight hit aim point and recorded for reference(I confirm by shooting at that range for fun but I don't record unless there is a change)
(https://i.ibb.co/TKVt7zn/DSC03775.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DGxQv36) here is my new build load workup at 50 2nd time to confirm
the load this rifle likes 80grns sw3f :o
(https://i.ibb.co/fqgJPnF/DSC03777.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yd92bYP)
here is the same rifle at 100 but I have not adjusted the sights yet to aim point till I get another outing with the same results(it's a record of what this rifle likes)
(https://i.ibb.co/J5gDQsy/DSC03384.jpg) (https://ibb.co/D5T0pR8)here is the cabin creek Brad Emig Yorktown work up and the sight adjustment It liked 60grns 3fswiss ::)
(https://i.ibb.co/p0Bt0WL/DSC03382.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5MgNMYR)
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here is my workup load for a hoyt 54
(https://i.ibb.co/jRpLbmP/DSC03412.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sHBFbnd)
and the sight in target to hit point of aim at 50 then some Black belts (gain twist barrel) for fun
(https://i.ibb.co/syNGZWn/DSC03413.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jgQ2SJm)
In short I don't keep or photo all my targets just the ones shot for record( the best so I don't forget the load for that rifle) :-\
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(https://i.ibb.co/DQZ7dyz/DSC03626.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HqjrZsB)
here is the Allen Martin and it's workup and sight adjustment in one target
(https://i.ibb.co/j3pS6Gn/DSC03620.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NW4MVpc)
I did the math and sighted in high at 50 to be a little low at 100 I had to file the rear to lower the shot
A man once said " Only Accurate Rifles are Interesting"
"I say with enough range work/time you can find an Accurate Load for ALMOST ANY RIFLE!"
(https://i.ibb.co/j4gKwH4/red-rifle-100yrds.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4NPySJN)
free image hosting (https://imgbb.com/) even a traditions cheep rifle @100yrds and sight in ;D
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.50 cal. Beck, made by Taylor with Rice Gun-maker's Barrel- square rifling.
50 yards range, rest shooting. 3F GOEX compared to 2F GOEX. A few more tests
when I get around to it and this rifle will be 'set'. Now that all I have is 2f Schutzen
I will have to repeat the testing.
The triangle 3 outside holes are with 75gr. 3F GOEX. The inner 3, were shot with the same point of aim
on the 4" bullseye, centre hold. I need to shoot this rifle on paper some more.
(https://i.ibb.co/2MBXCx0/50-Beck-50-yards-rest.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FYtGy2k)
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Thanks for all of the replies. I should have given more info in my original post. The barrel is a .54 Rice swamped 42inch. I am not sure of the “weight” classification (I don’t actually know how the scale works) but the barrel is a tad bit heavy. Allen Martin suggested having Bobby Hoyt remote it to make the gun lighter. Bobby said there is plenty of metal to make it work. Pretty sure I’m going with a .60 as I have another .54 that I’m currently shooting.
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I had Bobby Hoyt bore and rifle a barrel for me. It was a 43” Rice JJ Henry in .54 that weighed 5 lbs. 10.5 ounces. Due to a shoulder injury, that was going to be too heavy. Bobby cut 3” off and bored and rifled it to .60 cal. The barrel weighs a pound less now which should be more manageable.
Kevin
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I'd stay with the .54. I don't see any advantage to going bigger than that.
The "Hawken"style I made years ago was .54 and was a fierce performer at 100 yards.Bill Large barrel and the rest was mine.
I think that ball weighed 230 grains and 125 grains of 3fg got it from under the front sight.Sold it to Wes Kindig and don;t know where
it is now.The 54,I agree will do about anything that needs done with around ball.In the early 1960's I gave Turner Kirkland $65 for a Colt Special Model military rifle with a 40" barrel that had been reamed smooth.I took it to Bill Large's shop and made a 54 caliber barrel and
grafted the original breech to it and it would reach out and touch the ground hogs in the Smoke Hole area here in WVa.The last trip to that area was in 1965 and the Colt+the Len Meadows SMR and the Whitworth were all involved then.
Bob Roller