AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: wpshooter on May 10, 2024, 03:31:15 PM
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I have an old CVA mountain 45 caliber #11 side hammer cocked percussion cap pistol.
When I plugged the nipple with a toothpick and then filled the barrel with bore solvent, the solvent immediately existed the barrel via the breach plug.
My question is, is shooting a muzzleloader on which the breach plug is not liquid tight (and therefore most likely also not gas tight) dangerous to be used/fired ?
I also have another CVA pistol except a slightly different model and it does not leak a single drop. Also, have an off brand/imported Hawken rifle and it also does not leak a drop.
Thanks.
(https://i.ibb.co/109yvRn/DSCF0017.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XWz02F4)
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The best thing to do is to pull the breech plug and see what is going on. You may need to reinstall the breechplug and time it correctly so the plug face seats properly against the breech face. It could be that the plug threads have been eaten away with corrosion from improper cleaning. You will have to take a look to tell.
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Thanks for your reply.
Yes, I know that attempting to take the plug out would be a good place to start, HOWEVER, a bit of research tells me that attempting to do so because of what I would refer to as the rub-goldburg design of the percussion cap and plug area of this gun and especially the interconnect of those two components makes it pretty much impossible for a non-factory trained person to do so. And actually there is a warning poster on the Internet that taking the breach plug out of the guns should only be done by at the factory, of course, that is a problem since there is no factory any more for CVA according to my understanding.
I just want to know if (and I highly suspect that it is) dangerous to attempt to shoot this gun that can not stop liquid and then of course gas. And so, far I can find no one that has the knowledge to confirm this. But then, also don't want to throw a gun away when there might be a possibility that it is not necessary.
Thanks again.
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CAn we see a photo of the other side of the pistol?
Most old CVA guns used the simple drum and nipple method. I do not think that crazy breech plug / drum or snail type breech applied to those?
Not positive, just going from memory.
One thing for sure if the breech is leaking solvent, it leaking gas also. I would not shoot as is?
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One of my first muzzleloaders was a CVA mountain rifle. After a lot of shooting I noticed a burn mark in the wood behind the drum and nipple. With a little more investigation I found that the nipple threads in the drum had been flame cut by continues use. This is very hard to repair without damaging the breech plug or the barrel, and will negate any warrantee by the manufacturer.
Hungry Horse
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One of my first muzzleloaders was a CVA mountain rifle. After a lot of shooting I noticed a burn mark in the wood behind the drum and nipple. With a little more investigation I found that the nipple threads in the drum had been flame cut by continues use. This is very hard to repair without damaging the breech plug or the barrel, and will negate any warrantee by the manufacturer.
Hungry Horse
(https://i.ibb.co/sWQPWp5/DSCF0016.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xFGsFKm)
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You can not see it too well in this photo, but yes, it has the rub-goldburg of a drum !!!
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Have you looked at Deer Creek Products for a breech plug for your very nice looking pistol?
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Breech plugs in sidelocks should not be removed. At least with imported ones. They tend to not line up correctly when reinstalled. Somebody probably removed this one and it tightened up past center so they loosened it up to center it. I wouldn't shoot it.
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I am thinking the drum is threaded through the side of the barrel and into the breach plug. I have seen allot of destroyed parts were people have taken these apart, thinking rifles. I suspect it is extremely difficult to align for reassembly. Thinking new barrel and start over or look for a used assembly. I know$$$
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I am thinking the drum is threaded through the side of the barrel and into the breach plug.
You're right. It is.
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You can always cut the breech end of the barrel and re breech it properly.
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If that's the type that the drum goes thru the barrel and also locks thru the breech plug, sounds like a big problem. Would be a lor easier to just fit in a new barrel and old fasioned original type drun and nipple.
But like has been said $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Too bad, I wonder why it has started to leak?? Does it show signs of having been taken apart??
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I have a couple of CVA mountain rifles that I shoot very often. This topic interests me since the are breached the same as this pistol. My question is could the breach of the pistol or rifle be tig welded on to continue shooting without danger?
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If I'm not mistaken the way the CVA breech was made was very odd. In the image below the drum threads into the barrel and then the breechplug. The breech plug threads in front of the drum are very short. This allows a small area to contain gases and liquids. If you look at the image below right above "C" those two little angles with not very many threads. I surmise this is where the CVA breech leaks.
(https://i.ibb.co/xGhQqLL/CVA-breech.png) (https://ibb.co/RP2WTbb)
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I remember these type breeches.
I always thought they would be hard to clean and therefore foul and cause mis-fires?
I suppose you could weld it all up and then grind and file it down and refinish. And if moderate loads were used it could be ok. But you never know what the next owner might load it with? Lots more powder or heavy projectiles?
I wonder if welding might change the metal? Make it more brittle maybe?
Interesting problem.
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I have an old CVA mountain 45 caliber #11 side hammer cocked percussion cap pistol.
When I plugged the nipple with a toothpick and then filled the barrel with bore solvent, the solvent immediately existed the barrel via the breach plug.
My question is, is shooting a muzzleloader on which the breach plug is not liquid tight (and therefore most likely also not gas tight) dangerous to be used/fired ?
I also have another CVA pistol except a slightly different model and it does not leak a single drop. Also, have an off brand/imported Hawken rifle and it also does not leak a drop.
Thanks.
(https://i.ibb.co/109yvRn/DSCF0017.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XWz02F4)
If it was ever shot with a highly corrosive replica powder it may have “eaten a hole”. It has to be debreeched and if possible fixed.
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No its not safe. Period.
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No its not safe. Period.
Try fleabay there a lot of cva parts there. Good luck
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As Dan said: "If it was ever shot with a highly corrosive replica powder it may have “eaten a hole”. It has to be debreeched and if possible fixed. "
We're seen this on 2 occasions. It is quite possible the threads themselves have been compromised.
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I have a couple of CVA mountain rifles that I shoot very often. This topic interests me since the are breached the same as this pistol. My question is could the breach of the pistol or rifle be tig welded on to continue shooting without danger?
Somewhat, because it looks like someone has at least tried to get the drum off because the slot/head on its screw is all buggered up.
Also, beside leaking like a spigot at the back of the breech plug, a tiny bit leaks along edge of where drum meets the side of the barrel.
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What a shame, I’ve been looking for one of those pistols, or possibly the hawkens version. What does the barrel measure across the flats? There is a cva hooked breach pug for sale on eBay, but if it leaks that bad the barrel threads are probably toast as well.
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Also, beside leaking like a spigot at the back of the breech plug, a tiny bit leaks along edge of where drum meets the side of the barrel.
\That statement pretty much says it all - new barrel and breech plug, imho.
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Have you looked at Deer Creek Products for a breech plug for your very nice looking pistol?
Yes, I believe that I did look there and they had some parts that I need for the rifle I am cleaning up, but not breech plugs for this pistol.
Only 2 plugs I have been able to find are on Ebay, and I have no idea as to which of the 2 might be the right one and neither does the Ebay seller, I asked.
Thanks.
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What a shame, I’ve been looking for one of those pistols, or possibly the hawkens version. What does the barrel measure across the flats? There is a cva hooked breach pug for sale on eBay, but if it leaks that bad the barrel threads are probably toast as well.
Measures 3/8 inch across the flats.
Might you have any interest in this gun ? If so, I can have the owner get in touch with you to work out a possible deal. Thanks.
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Width across the flats is flat side to flat side, not width of the flat part. Common mistake. Probably 15/16 atf. Try a search of CVA replacement parts in the web, see what turns up.
Probably best to replace the whole barrel assembly.
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I realize this is not a direct help to the OP. But it is about CVA products.
Earlier this year I decided to finally build a flintlock around a CVA barrel that I've had for years. It was originally a percussion and I wanted a youth rifle.
So, I cut part of the barrel down and then used a section to fab a hook-breach. When I cut the barrel for the hook breech, this is what I discovered inside the barrel. (I bought a new barrel BTW)
(https://i.imgur.com/khfzENWl.jpg)
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I wouldn’t waste a lot of money on a CVA anything. If it were mine, and I wanted to shoot it. I would cut the breach off, forget the hooked breach, put a plain fixed tang on it and just shoot it. That gun in .45 cal. Is a boat anchor to start with.
Hungry Horse
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I would suggest forget a new original type breach plug as the seat in the barrel could and probably is bad. Cut off and re breach maybe. Maybe this should be a separate thread but sort of fits. I went through $#*! with a Rigby replica not a quality brand but otherwise nice bullet rifle and yes not of us make and yes the price was right supposed new. Up on firing for the first time I discovered a Leek at the breach plug. Un breached and found a gap between the face of the plug and the seat, set the barrel back and refitted the breach plug. Fixed no! Set the barrel up in the lathe and re cut the seat. Fixed no! I made a new beach plug as I recall the threads had quite a bit of a taper. Fixed no. OK cut a recess in the face of the breach plug and made a copper washer and fitted the breach plug really tight. Work NO! After a lot of thought and fine measuring it was determined the barrel was probably clamped in a vice and hand taped at an angle. The barrel wall is pretty thin so chasing the threads maybe a safety issue. Project has been sitting in the corner for a few years there will be a new barrel one of these days.
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I have one of those in .45 caliber. Barrel is 15/16" atf. I've had it for ~45 years and have fired it quite a bit, often with heavy loads. No breech leaks that I have ever noticed. I do have a CVA Philly Derringer (different breech design) that eventually developed a breech leak. I welded and ground it and have occasionally fired it that way with light loads with no issues. But I have since bought a new barrel for it.
If my Mountain Pistol ever did this, I would probably do as someone here suggested: cut and re-breech the barrel. Probably lose the hooked breech. Or, maybe fit a better quality barrel to it.
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I realize this is not a direct help to the OP. But it is about CVA products.
Earlier this year I decided to finally build a flintlock around a CVA barrel that I've had for years. It was originally a percussion and I wanted a youth rifle.
So, I cut part of the barrel down and then used a section to fab a hook-breach. When I cut the barrel for the hook breech, this is what I discovered inside the barrel. (I bought a new barrel BTW)
(https://i.imgur.com/khfzENWl.jpg)
I wish Jim Kelly were still around to comment. :-[
This is what happens with low grade, “free machining”/cold rolled steels are used. But people don’t want to hear it.
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My suggestion is for the owner of the pistol to remove the barrel from the stock and take some close up pictures with good lighting of the breech and bolster from several angles, so we can stop guessing about the problem.
I have removed the bolster and also the breech plug on three CVA rifles and had no trouble reinstalling them. I even converted a percussion 50 caliber to a flintlock, using the original breech plug.
The thing about invalidating the warranty is a moot point seeing as CVA is no longer around.
If you are close to me, or anyone with experience working on muzzleloaders, with hands on inspection it would not be hard to diagnose the problem. Or better yet call Deer Creek Products and make arrangements with Jim to send him the barrel.
Here is a link to one thread I posted on the Muzzleloading forum. If live links are not allowed and it gets removed send me a PM and I'll send it to whoever is interested. Or search for CVA Hawken for the record books.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/cva-54-hawken-for-the-record-books.95771/
Randy aka bpd303
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That gun in .45 cal. Is a boat anchor to start with.
Hungry Horse
Not a very good one I might add not enough weight or mass. ;D
Randy aka bpd303
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That gun in .45 cal. Is a boat anchor to start with.
Hungry Horse
Not a very good one I might add not enough weight or mass. ;D
Randy aka bpd303
Trot line weight.
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I don't consider mine a boat anchor at all. I'm a fan of .45 caliber muzzleloaders, and have several of them including CVA Mountain Pistol, Kentucky Pistol, Colonial Pistol and Philadelphia Derringer.
To each his own, though. It's all good as long as we're enjoying the hobby.
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I had exactly the same problem as Hungry
I had exactly the same problem as Hungry Horse with my 50 cal. Mountain Rifle back in the 1970's. That is leaky threads on the drum. My solution at the time was to braze around the base of the drum, which worked for a short time. The problem with this was that in order to reinstall the lock properly, I had to file the excess braze material which eventually led to more leakage.
I did actually solve the problem by sending the barrel back to CVA. They sent me a new replacement barrel!!
Steve Hefner
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Hefner; I think you misunderstood me, my CVA Mountain Rifle burned all the treads out of the drum where the nipple threads in. But I did shoot sixteen pounds of powder through it in a couple of years.
Hungry Horse
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Buy a welder's face shield if you are going to shoot it as is ;D ;D..That type of gun is designed to sell and had no appeal to a better market.
Bob Roller
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Hefner; I think you misunderstood me, my CVA Mountain Rifle burned all the treads out of the drum where the nipple threads in. But I did shoot sixteen pounds of powder through it in a couple of years.
Hungry Horse
Interesting. Obviously a VERY poor fit and/or design. I put 25 pounds of powder through my .69 in one year - no problems. That was about 30 pounds of powder ago.
I would suggest that barrel and breech are KAPUT!
Still shooting it (the .69) regularly.