AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Outlander on May 24, 2024, 06:22:16 AM
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Today I finally got around to trying to get my Kibler Woodsrunner on target .
What happened is that with both the front and rear sights centered on the barrel it was shooting 10 inches left of the Bullseye at 40 yards .
I had to move both sights all the way out to get it to shoot centered on the target . (see pics)
What is going on here ? My Southern Mountain Rifle shoots perfectly with the sights exactly centered .
The end of the barrel was firmly wedged into the heavy rest that I was using . ( I think I can rule out flinching )
(https://i.ibb.co/wyk1DDS/IMG-3312-Copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y09JLL6)
(https://i.ibb.co/wsC24cj/IMG-3313-Copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zJbtZ6D)
(https://i.ibb.co/8069YVh/IMG-3314-Copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R9zcjW5)
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Did you try different weight powder charges, patch thickness or even ball size? You have a lot to make up there, do you have someone else that can shoot the rifle to get another view at it?
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I have an Ithaca Hawken that I had to have the sights just as yours are, I was still chasing it when I realized the rear sight was loose in the dovetail. Check both sight dovetails, to make sure sight is solid. Index with tape on barrel and sight to mark to ensure no movement.
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Does the bore look centered at the muzzle or slightly askew to one side? Just a thought.
Jay
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Take the barrel out of the stock and check to see if it is bent on a straight edge.
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Call Jim Kibler. If it’s wrong he’ll make it right.
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Unless the photo is distorted, those sights are not centered. The back sight is to the right and the front sight looks to the left.
Thing I don't understand that they way they appear to me, would make it shoot to the right??
Maybe just an illusion, but to me here, they look pretty far off center?
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The OP said in his post he had to go to that sight position to get his rifle to shoot down the middle. With the sights centered his rifle shot 10" to the left.
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Pushing the rear site to the right will cause the POI to move right. Pushing the front site to the left will also (or in addition) cause the POI to move to the right.
I'm sure Jim will stand behind his product and provide sound advice or replacement.
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just for the heck of it, I would shoot the gun with it resting on top of the bag rest, with the bag crosswise at about the entry pipe.
That may help tell you if one of the lugs or pins may be in tension, or if the bag rest is putting pressure somewhere.
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Is the barrel making contact all along the channel and that it is not canted? Have you tried backing off the lock screws and tang a bit?
Tim C.
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Is the barrel bent? No matter just call Jim.
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That's a good looking rifle.
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If it’s consistently shooting in a tight-ish group then I would guess your barrel needs to be straightened.
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Give us a call on Tuesday. Seems something isn’t right. Sorry for the trouble.
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Pushing the rear site to the right will cause the POI to move right. Pushing the front site to the left will also (or in addition) cause the POI to move to the right.
I'm sure Jim will stand behind his product and provide sound advice or replacement.
Yep... I always remember the acronym FORS (Front Opposite Rear Same) when adjusting sights.
Randy aka bpd303
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I guess I missed that part about he already did adjust the sights to get it centered? Happens a lot any more. But for sure, Mr Kibler will stand by his product, or at least find the problem.
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get someone else to try it and see if still shoots left
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Bend the barrel.
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To be out that far, the barrel must be bent, or the bore wanders inside the barrel by a lot, which is unlikely.
I had a GM barrel that was like that, crooked bore as it was centered, fore and aft, but could not be sighted in.
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I don't like anything that goes far left.
Robby
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I’m 100% sure Jim Kibler will make it right, and I’d not do anything else but work with him on it.
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Curious if shooting technique has anything to do with it. :-\
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Bend the barrel.
I’d second that!
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If it were mine Id remove barrel pins loosen all fasteners till just a little snug , then use my Lead Sled . at this point I would determine- Load or issue with barrel .Not to be snide sarcastic I think you should really have someone knowledgeable look at the rifle . Jim Kibler would be my first suggestion.
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States his SMR shoots perfectly with sights centered. This tells me he knows what he is doing.
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Thank You
Been shooting just about everything for the last 50 years.
Tried it again today after a thorough cleaning and a switch from 60 grains of fff GOEX to 60 grains of fff Swiss. (50 cal. .495 ball )
Also used a heavy sand filled shooting bag under the butt this time.
Still at 40 yards ,slightly better ,POI 8 1/2 inches left of point of aim with sights centered .
Don't want to bend no barrel , sounds like a possible recipe for disaster.
Will be talking to the good people at Kibler.
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When a barrel is this bad, I would quit fooling around with it. In your case I would ask for a new barrel.
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10" is too far left to be the load or shooter. That is a bad barrel, either runout or bent.
If I have put down my money for a barrel, I would not want to bend it to make it shoot straight. To my brain that introduces stresses that would tend to make groups sizes larger. I know that gunsmiths did it in the old day, but if it can be replaced, I would want it replaced.
I am glad Jim has jumped in and offered to fix it.
I have had two bad barrels, and they are a nightmare to try to get to shoot.
Best wishes, Marc
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Jim can straighten it. He is set up to do the work efficiently and correctly. Give him a chance. He did one for me and it is fine now.
I shipped mine in an ABS pipe if I remember right. I have a Kibler Barrel box that he must have sent it back to me in. It is important to tape a stick to the bottom of the barrel to prevent ruining the tang. Do it how Jim says.
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Sent it out yesterday ,packed very tightly in rags inside a length of schedule 40 PVC pipe.
I don't think it can move at all in there no matter what , so the tang should be ok. Sure hope so.
Now we wait .
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I went through this same issue with a 36 cal by a reputable maker. The ultimate concern was that the barrel was bent. It happens, it's not necessarily the builders fault and it is not easy to determine. I also sent it back to the builder and the finding was that it was not bend. But I was totally sour on keeping it and sold it to another person who knew the details and was willing to take on the task of finding the problem. He determined the problem was with the rear sight and the slot or notch was slightly off center. I think he simply recut the notch, widening it and centering the cut. Shoots perfectly true now and he is a happy owner of a beautiful 36 cal for his squirrel hunts.
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Interesting. ???
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I had a barrel that was off like that once. Turned out to be a damaged crown. Wasn’t much, but enough to throw off the shot several inches. Re- crowned and polished, and it returned to center.
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I had a barrel that was off like that once. Turned out to be a damaged crown. Wasn’t much, but enough to throw off the shot several inches. Re- crowned and polished, and it returned to center.
That is how double barrel side by sides are regulated so both barrels have the same point of impact.
Randy aka bpd303
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When I reached out to The good Kibler people to inquire about my barrel ,they told me it WAS bent ,and would I also like to have the underlug repaired ?
Yes please , I said . (the bottom of the rear lug was missing when I took the barrel out of the stock , I must have broken it when I drove the pin through ).
So when the much anticipated wooden Kibler box appeared in the yard ,it contained to my surprise ,a brand new barrel!
They are so busy with the new Fowler and they didn't want to keep me waiting any longer they said.
Dropped the barrel in the stock and of course it fit so beautiful and tight as only a Kibler can .
Now I get to draw file and brown it again which I consider a challenging but enjoyable job.
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Good to hear. I look forward to hearing about the accuracy you get from that pretty rifle when it is re-complete.
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I am not a round ball fan but do know that if the muzzle is not at true and gas escapes more on one side that the other a quick fix is with a file or a lathe.A polished muzzle will tell the tale after the first shot.
Bob Roller
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When I reached out to The good Kibler people to inquire about my barrel ,they told me it WAS bent ,and would I also like to have the underlug repaired ?
Yes please , I said . (the bottom of the rear lug was missing when I took the barrel out of the stock , I must have broken it when I drove the pin through ).
So when the much anticipated wooden Kibler box appeared in the yard ,it contained to my surprise ,a brand new barrel!
They are so busy with the new Fowler and they didn't want to keep me waiting any longer they said.
Dropped the barrel in the stock and of course it fit so beautiful and tight as only a Kibler can .
Now I get to draw file and brown it again which I consider a challenging but enjoyable job.
Interesting that they said the barrel was bent. But I suppose even a slight bend or anomaly in a barrel would result in the POI's you were getting.
The broken underlug (IMHO) was likely the cause. When you removed the barrel you didn't notice the lug was broken? I'd guess if this lug was broken when you pinned it, the pin may have pushed the barrel out of alignment?
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When I reached out to The good Kibler people to inquire about my barrel ,they told me it WAS bent ,and would I also like to have the underlug repaired ?
Yes please , I said . (the bottom of the rear lug was missing when I took the barrel out of the stock , I must have broken it when I drove the pin through ).
So when the much anticipated wooden Kibler box appeared in the yard ,it contained to my surprise ,a brand new barrel!
They are so busy with the new Fowler and they didn't want to keep me waiting any longer they said.
Dropped the barrel in the stock and of course it fit so beautiful and tight as only a Kibler can .
Now I get to draw file and brown it again which I consider a challenging but enjoyable job.
Interesting that they said the barrel was bent. But I suppose even a slight bend or anomaly in a barrel would result in the POI's you were getting.
The broken underlug (IMHO) was likely the cause. When you removed the barrel you didn't notice the lug was broken? I'd guess if this lug was broken when you pinned it, the pin may have pushed the barrel out of alignment?
Would you care to elaborate? I’ve been doing this a long time and can’t understand your reasoning here. The under lugs on this one are integral and slotted. Educate me!!
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Would you care to elaborate? I’ve been doing this a long time and can’t understand your reasoning here. The under lugs on this one are integral and slotted. Educate me!!
I'm not making a statement. I'm asking or thinking out loud. And I understand the slots run parallel (horizontal) to the barrel, not vertical.
He stated the lug was broken when he removed the barrel. Ok...if the lug was broken it was likely done when he installed it. (To me it seems it would take a pretty good rap to break the underlug. But I could be wrong.) If the underlug broke, did the force of breaking that underlug cause the barrel to "push up" (bow) in that area? If so, it must not have been noticeable to the eye.
Kibler stated the barrel was bent. Ok, if the barrel was bent then is the barrel channel also "bent". You can't fit a bent barrel into a straight channel. Again, unless the barrel was pushed up enough to effect the bullet flight....yet not discernible to the naked eye.?
I'm not providing the answer.....I'm trying to understand what occurred.
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Kibler's Woodsrunner lugs are machined into the barrel when it is made.. They aren't installed. It would be hard to break one off. Especially with the holes already drilled.
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A bent barrel will go into the channel. I assembled a kit for another source that had a warped stock. I bought it with the knowledge that the stock was warped ( bargain price) and barrel and stock went together with a little effort. That little skinny stock actually moved the barrel! I actually bent the barrel in the opposite direction to compensate and got it in the 10 ring. They will fit up down right or left as long as the channel is the same size as the barrel. A couple years later and that gun is still performing.
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Kibler's Woodsrunner lugs are machined into the barrel when it is made.. They aren't installed. It would be hard to break one off. Especially with the holes already drilled.
Ok. I didn't know that. But still, if one was broken off it had to occur during assembly. Perhaps the stock warped a bit during shipping or weather change (humid or dry) and that caused the lug to shift up or down and essentially block the pin. A good whack with a ball peen would or could break one. I can see that.
That's my only assumption as to why a bent barrel would fit into a straight stock and not properly shoot.
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The stock will follow the barrel, bent barrel or warped stock.
Pressure may or may not bend the barrel depending on how much actual side pressure there is.
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Seems interesting?
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The new barrel is in the stock and it's shooting fine, right at point of aim with the sights centered on the barrel.
I'm sure I broke that rear lug when I drove the pin through, after Kibler cuts the slot in it there's very little steel left on the bottom.
Don't reach for that hammer if the pin won't go through !
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A barrel doesn’t have to be bent much to throw off the point of impact. I had a barrel that was bent and it was barely perceptible by eye. Was off about 8 inches at 40 yds. A slight bend in the opposite direction and the barrel was shooting fine. I was able to make minor adjustments with the sights. It seems a lot of fellas are not willing to bend a barrel. It’s not difficult and it works.
In this case, a replacement was probably appropriate as it was brand new.
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Put your sights back to the center of the barrel and then bend your barrel to the right a little. When your close to where you want to hit then adjust your sights.
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Put your sights back to the center of the barrel and then bend your barrel to the right a little. When your close to where you want to hit then adjust your sights.
From July: The OP has installed a new bbl-straight from Jim and it works. Jim pronounced the original bbl bent and also the OP beat an "integral underlug" off the original bbl (which probably had nothing to do with the bend). I'm sure his sights are closer to the middle now.