AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Rolf on June 02, 2024, 10:02:52 AM
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Just came home from a black bear stalking hunt, BC, Canada. The guide told me to expect up to 300meters shooting distance, which is why I used a modern rifle. Got a nice bear 5foot + 6inches.
Planning a new trip with the same guide, December 2025 for mountain lion with dogs. Expected shooting distance max 50 meters. I'd like to use one of my flintlocks or percussion rifles.
I've been told the temperature will be between -10 Celsius and -20 Celsius.
How will this effect black powder?
Is caliber 54 large enough for mountain lion?
Best regards
Rolf
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Doesn't take much to kill a mountain lion, especially one that is treed.
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At the range you would be shooting and the load you use you are OK for Mt. Lion or another bear and several other critters. ;)
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I believe cold weather makes little difference, if any at all, on black powder. No scientific data to back that up just 50 years experience.
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The real problem is your patch lube at these temperatures. Almost everything turns to cement at low temperature. An old friend came within an ace of blowing up a tradegun I had helped him build in Idaho because of cold. You may also find when wearing heavy gloves, or mitten, it almost impossible to load safely, or shoot safely.
Hungry Horse
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A .54 would be fine for mountain lion.
Back when I got my first chronograph I wondered a bit about this, so I did some tests. From what I saw, with a load that gave me amuzzle velocity of ~550 mps, with loads developed at ~25 degrees C, my velocity dropped about 16 mps at about -20 C. Changes in point of impact at 50 meters weren't enough for me to notice when shooting offhand, but a better shooter might. From a bench, group center dropped about 1-1.5cm at the same range. (Had to convert the numbers in my notes to metric, sorry for the approximations.)
As Hungry Horse pointed out, lube is probably a greater concern. My tests were done using neatsfoot oil as a patch lube. Using neatsfoot oil, I've hunted in temps down below -30C without patch lube-related problems.
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Habu has it. Not enough difference to make a difference. The only problems we've had with cold weather shooting, was the odd spring breakage at -30C or so. We don't shoot in those temps any more. Neetsfoot Oil works just fine. Practise with it before the hunt.
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My club (Texas) used to shoot a postal match with a club in some cold place up north, don’t remember where. We submitted our scores and attached a note explaining that the low scores were due to it raining during the match. They returned a photo of their whole firing line knee deep in snow and wearing Bermuda shorts.
Lynn
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A thought for keeping your hands warm. I have a pair of wool "fingerless" gloves that have a mitten flap to cover your fingers when you don't need the dexterity. When you load or shoot, the mitten cover folds back to the back of your hand and sticks to a velcro type tab. You can load or shoot and then replace the mitten cover to keep your fingers functional. Frozen fingers don't work well, especially when attached to an antique body.
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Started using those mitten/gloves since 1980's when it gets cold. Last 5 years or so, we haven't shot the trail if over -5 (about 24F) & at those mild temps, no gloves are needed.
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Biggest issue with sub-zero (Celsius) temperatures is the patch lube. Wet patches will freeze, or even if you keep them warm, they'll freeze as you try to load and they come in contact with the cold barrel. Ask me how I know!.
Mink oil will work. It's a bit :*%#!!& for target shooting, as I find it fouls up a lot more, but for hunting, it should be absolutely fine.
-10C is my absolutely limit for deer hunting, but it'll be different if you're stalking/moving. Still, anything under -20C will be miserable, unless it's sunny.
Also get one of these:
https://www.cabelas.ca/product/112462/cabelas-mens-windstopper-handwarmer
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That is only - 4 here. Not that bad unless it is windy.
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Thank you all for your advice. I've found a supplier in Norway with neats foot oil and will try it out this winter.
Best regards
Rolf
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lock lube and patch lube might freeze , might try a dry lube
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Neetsfoot and Tracks Mink Oil oil worked for me for the patched first shot. After that shot on moose, I loaded with a paper ctg. After practicing, I found I could load, cap and fire an aimed shot in 8 seconds after the first shot. Since the rifle was a 14 bore, the second shot was not needed.
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Doesn't take much to kill a mountain lion, especially one that is treed.
The reason to kill it IS??????
Bob Roller
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Populations need to be controlled, if you want ungulates in the area for hunting. If overpopulated, they come to the outskirts of towns,
just like the coyotes in Hollywood. We're even seeing coyotes in town here, along with the bears.
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Doesn't take much to kill a mountain lion, especially one that is treed.
The reason to kill it IS??????
Bob Roller
All game is managed. Or better be. Right now Gbears are not managed in the lower 48 and the PETA types are whining about delisting. Lying of course. But they have reached the point of coming to gunshots so hunters end up shooting them in self-defense after killing a deer or Elk. Every meat eater larger than a Fox has a record of killing people on the North American continent. Not sure about the Lynx but they are big enough to kill small humans Alaska Natives probably know. Then there are the Bison that gore people who harass them in National Parks. When you get away from the streets and sidewalks in Montana and a great many other places you enter the food chain.
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So far as I know cold has no significant effect on BP. However, given that all firearms are “heat engines” the cold barrel will slightly reduce velocity do to heat loss to the cold barrel, or so I have read. In any case its not enough to cause any issues. It would not occur to me to consider it. In the context of hunting even “gray” powders that are considered heat sensitive for target work will not cause noticeable issues.
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Look... frankly speaking... below zero degrees Celsius, the only thing I crave is a very hot cup of tea, while I read this forum or watch a good movie... lol!
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For the first shot with a clean barrel you wouldn’t necessarily need a lubed patch as long as the patch fills the rifling. Follow-up shots would need a lube.
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How does cold weather (winter) effect black powder??
It makes it stay in the cabinet until it gets warmer outside.
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An interesting thing, indeed;
Cold weather makes Black Powder cold.
Conversely, warm weather makes Black Powder warm.
Science just amazes me.
Really, it does.
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I use a bullet block for hunting with my .54 percussion, around my neck, inside of my coat to keep the patches warm during our December ML season. Charges are carried in homemade metal brass tubes w/ corks. And we always drop a dry patch on top of the powder before ramming down the patched ball, so no concern of the patch lube getting into the powder. They we tie a small triangle of scrap suede leather to our trigger guards on a cord that we place over the capped nipple so we can carry the hammer down upon it all. With the cord on the trigger guard, you can easily flick the leather off the cap when the hammer is cocked with the trigger finger.
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Not a scientific test I know, but.... When choosing a lube for hunting I always place a lubed patch in the freezer for a few days then check it to see if it's frozen.
This works fine for my area and climate but I know some of us deal with much lower temps. Perhaps sandwiching the patch between chunks of dry ice would be a better test?
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If you get a muzzleloader tag in ND, you can bet it’s going to be below zero on your hunt. I hunted this morning in -10f. In my experience it has little effect on the powder itself but if you bring a cold barrel inside it will condensate and may dampen your powder. I usually unload my rifle and put a new load in before every hunt due to this. I took my glove off to cock my rifle in -20f ish degree weather once and my thumb froze to the hammer, lol, wasn’t expecting that.
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When hunting the late season, special weapon's hunt for moose, I always leaned my rifle against a spruce tree with the muzzle covered with electrician's tape.
The bows kept snow off the rifle and it never got wet. I am talking about 32F down to -56F. Those colder temps are hard on springs, but the powder is unaffected.
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I've also used a blanket case when hunting in the snow. It keeps moisture off the lock and maybe? keeps it a little warmer.
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At -20C, you wont really need gloves whem loading ig ypur circulation is OK.
Its pretty dry at that temp, and l often work for a good while without gloves, with no bother.
Im with SvottC, and wear a loading block around my neck inside my shirt.
I just use deer tallow, buf it usually slides down the bore alright.
Flat patches sometimes need holding in the mouth before loading.
Remember minus 20C is only half cold!
We have had a fair bit of this already, and am still wearing my flat cap.
It feels warmer than minus 5 does very often, as the air is drier.
Best,
R.
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your powder might be ok it's your lube that might change things I need to keep my tallow patches in a warm pocket to keep them from freezing solid to the point I can't separate the patches or load them they are more like a poker chip hard ( might freeze to the ball)
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At -20C, you wont really need gloves whem loading ig ypur circulation is OK.
Its pretty dry at that temp, and l often work for a good while without gloves, with no bother.
Im with SvottC, and wear a loading block around my neck inside my shirt.
I just use deer tallow, buf it usually slides down the bore alright.
Flat patches sometimes need holding in the mouth before loading.
Remember minus 20C is only half cold!
We have had a fair bit of this already, and am still wearing my flat cap.
It feels warmer than minus 5 does very often, as the air is drier.
Best,
R.
-20 C is -4 F. Plenty cold to keep me from wanting to fumble with patches and round balls in the snow.
You saying that is only half-cold reminds me of a time I was driving back to my apartment my first semester in graduate school during a full on blizzard. It was well below zero, especially with the wind chill. Through the blinding snow, I spotted one of my professors walking back to her house already a couple miles from campus and offered to give her a ride. She just smiled and said, "Thank you, but this weather just reminds her of home." She is Canadian.
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LOL - love the cold stories. Used to revel in it when the very air itself sparkled. That happens at -40 around here.
Don't like it much, any more.
-14C so that's only 6.8F. Some were gloves, some don't. New Years day, 2008(I think)
(https://i.ibb.co/mymYL0Y/Brad-on-Flying-Goose.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VCdh7xh)
(https://i.ibb.co/tYJp0ny/P2011558.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h2mFGrp)
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your powder might be ok it's your lube that might change things I need to keep my tallow patches in a warm pocket to keep them from freezing solid to the point I can't separate the patches or load them they are more like a poker chip hard ( might freeze to the ball)
I used Deer Tallow for years and at times in quite cold weather. I don't know if I ever had a patch stick to the ball. I'm thinking at the shot the burning powder would melt any sticky lube on the way down the bore.
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Absolutely spot-on. Mink oil would turn liquid in the fingers just handling the patches when loading patch and ball.
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That is exciting, Rolf. I do hope you eat that cat if you get one. I've heard many times it is very tasty. Utah recently passed a law allowing them to be hunted similarly to coyotes. Open season, no tag required, but you must report harvest. I'm not sure if the legality on using dogs.
I will be out a few days this winter hoping to run across one. But, likely with my bolt action because I think the chances of me stalking to within 75 yards of a big cat are .... Near zero. I'll do some snowshoe hare hunting with my flinter.