AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: Jim Kibler on August 09, 2024, 04:40:42 AM
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I just tried to post on the other thread, but it didn’t seem to go through. So, I’ll try to remember what I said…
First, I really don’t know why some find the kit carving to be so offensive and so inflammatory? It’s okay if you don’t like it, but it seems there must be more that I don’t understand.
So here’s my assessment of my own work…. It’s good, but can be better. When compared to the vast majority of carving done today it stands up well. This is from someone who has paid their dues. Funny thing is, most who have ability and have also paid their dues are generally supportive.
If you want me to take your opinions more seriously, show some of your own work to help show how ours could be better.
Over the last month or so, I’ve been working on new relief carving. It’s not been easy, but I think I’m gaining on it. Remember that none of this would have seemed possible just a few years ago.
Here’s a few pictures of the one rifle I finished. Looking back I think it looks pretty decent…
(https://i.ibb.co/dfXGHfY/IMG-3050.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FhcgdhT)
(https://i.ibb.co/HBF6WtQ/IMG-3053.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NtV589z)
(https://i.ibb.co/QnXPVp5/IMG-3047.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nfR7y6W)
(https://i.ibb.co/dfXGHfY/IMG-3050.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FhcgdhT)
(https://i.ibb.co/QnXPVp5/IMG-3047.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nfR7y6W)
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I really like this work very nice !
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I have read many think it is overdone. The original had much simpler more tasteful carving. Of course “there is no accounting for taste” but that is the sentiment of so many potential customers.
I believe in your earlier films on you tube you mentioned you have plans to do a simpler relief carved variant more in spirit of the original. I think it would be a hit.
Also if the carving option didn’t blow the price up by $400 that sure would be nice. A simpler/less amount of carving at least as a secondary option for the Woodsrunner and especially offered at a slightly lesser price would be ideal.
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Truly amazed by the innovation and creativity displayed by the Kibler folks, nicely designed rifles to begin with and now this. Maybe there is some way to tell that this is done with CNC technology, but from the pictures I don't see it. Nicely designed as well.
robby
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Little resemblance to the original rifle dubbed the "woodsrunner" or the "ridge runner".
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Little resemblance to the original rifle dubbed the "woodsrunner" or the "ridge runner".
You think? Now I’m confused. Here I was trying to make a copy. Guess I missed a little…. What’s a ridge runner anyway?
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I think that rifle is absolutely beautiful, and that is coming from someone who generally prefers plainer but nicely shaped long rifles rather than the fancier ones.
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I am a fan of Kibler's work. Best option available for those who cannot afford a big money custom gun.
But to keep it simple, "that's what they make chocolate and vanilla".
We are fortunate to have this option.
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That's actually a stunning gun. Aside from the carving, the color and texture are quite attractive. Well finished and warm gun in my opinion.
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Well done, Jim. That gun is beautiful. Keep up the great work and I don't think you have to explain yourself. You are a master. Thanks for being around, easily accessible and extremely helpful. 8) :) Dave
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I think there are probably less than a handful of people on this forum that can begin to understand what it took to draw the carving, model the carving, process and post, then prove and improve the code, tool testing, etc, to get the actual output on the stock to look the way it does. All doable, obviously, but it's a mountain of work that has been executed SUPERBLY, far and away better than all but a few will understand. It is my opinion that if you don't like it that's fine, but to tinkle on it because you don't like it or think it costs too much is not a good move. Keep moving, don't buy it. Want something different? Vote with your wallet, ask for it and you might get it.
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Agreed! For those that don't like it for whatever reason, they can already buy the kit without the carving and leave it uncarved or try it themselves. My friends had the colonial and now one has the woods runner, and he finished it up great and it feels fantastic. Kibler's products are fantastic.
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just want to throw in my two pennies and say that I love the carving. The finish on the rifle that Mr. Kibler is showing us the pictures of here is absolutely exceptional and really shows off the carving well, IMHO.
If my hands were not full of arthritis and I wasn't now on a fixed income and half crippled, I'd love to purchase one of these kits with the carving, and try my hand at it. In fact I may just do it anyway one of these days.
Thank you Jim Kibler for your wonderful contributions to our obsession/hobby/pastime.
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Jim I think a lot of critics of the carving on your woods runner are not capable of doing equal quality work. I think it is beautiful I am trying to teach myself to carve longrifles and hope to come close to your work someday. Keep up the great work you have done a lot for making this hobby affordable for a lot of people.
Mike
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I can look at the CNC carving on the Kibler Woodsrunner and immediately see it as Jim's work. What many who are making comments (in ignorance) about the carving looking too mechanical don't realize is that Jim's incised carving by hand would look to most exactly like the CNC work. He is that meticulous and that good.
This has been a compensated advertisement and I am looking forward to my 16 bore fowling piece kit in English walnut any day now.. 8)
Yes, this last part is purely in jest.
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Here is a link to several photos of the original woodsrunner. My remark is that the original does not have the elaborate carving. I am making no other observation but I do have a copy of the original and I have handled the original and they are quite different. As to the name, "ridge runner" does on occasion appear in scholarly articles as some from ASAC but Gusler's name is far more widely recognized.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=49297.0
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I've never worked a CNC machine, but I am amazed at what a skilled craftsman can do with this tool. I am an artist that started out with nothing more than pencils and brushes-- but quickly adopted the computer as a worktool as it became available and when the typography and other tools became advanced enough to make it an asset and not a liability. I learned how to use a computer over time, so my work looked more natural. It allowed me to explore design ideas that I could not have easily done with traditional tools. it was fun to push the tool and see where I could take it. It was hard work-- It was good work but it was different.
A skilled artist, or a carver/engraver's handwork looks better and feels better than computer work. Human hands give the work a heartbeat. A skilled artist or CNC craftsman can come pretty darn close though, because they are able to transfer some of that humanity to the work-- but not all of it, because of the "tool" offers less physical interaction. The tool makes the difference of how close the hands are to the work.
An example recently: A few years ago, I ran across a young blacksmith that was hammering out really outstanding hand forged axes. I wanted to encourage him and I also wanted a camp ax. I bought one. In the subsequent years, this young man expanded his business and now has a handful of employees and a warehouse full of machines that help him hammer out more inventory. His axes are still quite impressive and they look much more refined. I am personally more happy with the early ax he made for me than his newer "better" products. Why is that? I see his hands in the earlier ax, but arguably, his "hands" are on his later ones too-- just in a different way? Maybe its nostalgia... and this young lad is quite successful now and I would begrudge no man that.
K
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Here is a link to several photos of the original woodsrunner. My remark is that the original does not have the elaborate carving. I am making no other observation but I do have a copy of the original and I have handled the original and they are quite different. As to the name, "ridge runner" does on occasion appear in scholarly articles as some from ASAC but Gusler's name is far more widely recognized.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=49297.0
I see quite a few of these finished with all sorts of carving designed and executed by the builder. It's pretty obvious many of these guys putting these "woodsrunners" together want something more than a gun as plain as the original is. So, they carve them in ways that make them happy. No big deal is it? After all, we have no idea what more extensive carving may have looked like by the original's builder. I personally am not that crazy about the carving on the original or it's architecture. Kibler greatly improved the architecture and appeal of the original. I have handled the original and the "Feather rifle" in person several times.
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Just my two cents.. I'm not a carver either..but to me it's like looking at a painting or any other craft. Just because the person can't do it themselves doesn't mean they don't have an opinion. Everyone has their likes and dislikes. Personally I like the carving but I dislike all the hash marks.
I think it is unnecessary overly done. My opinion only and simpler is better.
If you get a chance take a look at Ethan Yazel and how he did his Woodsrunner. For me it is by far a very well done rifle. Simple and elegant.
Maybe it's time to quit belittling people because they can't do what you can! But appreciate a difference of opinion. Besides who wants to go to the gun range and see someone else with the same rifle you have ? I know I don't. !
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I think the problem is in part due to people not realizing how little they know and understand. This doesn’t deter them from being outspoken though. After the frustration passes, about all I can do is shake my head…
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(https://i.ibb.co/pWJ0s3L/IMG-3210.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jx5Bbzs)
(https://i.ibb.co/3s311Ln/IMG-3211.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YWC22qx)
image upload (https://imgbb.com/)
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Boy, I just can’t get over how mechanical and machine made this carving above looks. And all those nasty parallel lines… Terrible looking stuff.
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Well, it looks pretty good to me, Jim. I like it.
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I think the problem is in part due to people not realizing how little they know and understand. This doesn’t deter them from being outspoken though. After the frustration passes, about all I can do is shake my head…
Perhaps people know and understand a good deal more than you give them credit for. Also, you would likely be well served by giving some open-minded thought to what they have to say, rather than writing them off as outspoken know-nothings.
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Ah yes… an expected response. I’m only sharing what I believe to be true. Take it for what you think it’s worth. Half the things I say are those which others think but don’t care to share. I’ll say what I feel to be true. I’ve paid my dues and earned that right.
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I think the problem is in part due to people not realizing how little they know and understand. This doesn’t deter them from being outspoken though. After the frustration passes, about all I can do is shake my head…
Perhaps people know and understand a good deal more than you give them credit for. Also, you would likely be well served by giving some open-minded thought to what they have to say, rather than writing them off as outspoken know-nothings.
I believe Kibler has far more patience than I do. ;)
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So does one have to "earn" the right to speak what he believes to be true? Not in free America. Hopefully not here either. Yeah, some folks believe things I might consider ill-informed or motivated by fear or anger, but I'd imagine folks think the same of some stuff I believe. I'd never pressure them by shame or popularity to keep silent. Truth is acquired by listening, comparing and contrasting. Like cream it rises to the top eventually.
I appreciate the pictures being posted. They speak volumes.
K
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I personally think Jim Kibler has done more for the flintlock community than any one person, by making an affordable, high quality product, that is within arguable historical bounds. His guns have a great appeal to the average guy raising a family, that cannot afford a custom gun, or doesn’t have the ability to build one himself. Please don’t criticize him, if you don’t like his product, dont buy it! Quit the negative nitpicking!
I personally have a hard time criticizing a guy that has went ‘all in’ financially to follow his dream.
PS Jim Kibler wouldn’t know me if I stepped on his foot….
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We need "like" buttons...
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We need "like" buttons...
Why?
If you like it, just type “I like it”
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We need "like" buttons...
Why?
If you like it, just type “I like it”
Too complicated. A simple nifty will suffice.
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We need "like" buttons...
Why?
If you like it, just type “I like it”
Too complicated. A simple nifty will suffice.
Pretty nifty response 😉
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Anyone who puts their work out there is likely to get a mixture of comments. Some are encouraging, some are constructive feedback, others perhaps offered to elevate the critic. To very roughly paraphrase Teddy R. "Its not the critic who counts, but the person in the ring, daring greatly ....". At least Jim is in the ring and deserves credit for that, good or bad feedback not withstanding. I don't own one of his rifles but have fired a Colonial and it handled very nicely in a hunting environment.
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Here is a link to several photos of the original woodsrunner. My remark is that the original does not have the elaborate carving. I am making no other observation but I do have a copy of the original and I have handled the original and they are quite different. As to the name, "ridge runner" does on occasion appear in scholarly articles as some from ASAC but Gusler's name is far more widely recognized.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=49297.0
By the way you can also say the same for the T/C Hawken and many other "Hawkens". A model name isn't a museum or bench copy. It is just a name for a particular model. Rifles would be hard to differentiate if everything was called a "generic rifle".
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Jim , I believe your carving is quite nice !!
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Maybe it's time people realize others have a right to their opinions..!
If we all liked the same things. It would be a very dull world..
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Jim, you are a gift to the Longrifle community.
An artist, a craftsman and a talented designer and a pretty good businessman I suppose.
You've made a high quality beautifully carved rifle/fowler accessible to the person who can't create one , or afford a custom made one.
I have your extra fancy grade carved Woodsrunner and I take it out once a week or so and admire it and/or shoot it,and try to work up the courage to
carve your Colonial myself.
A thing of beauty is a joy forever.
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Jim,
If the carving on a Woodsrunner annoys some people, be prepared for the wrath of the Hawken gods if you follow up with one for your next product.
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Jim,
If the carving on a Woodsrunner annoys some people, be prepared for the wrath of the Hawken gods if you follow up with one for your next product.
I already have my sales tag line... "What a Hawken should have been"
Think that will get under anybody's skin!
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I like it! Hawken's are too heavy and have no style. They are like putting a barrel, triggers and a lock on a fence post. Who wants one like that. Actually I bet they were hard to shoot from a galloping horse and were actually made to club the buffalo in the head after you missed.
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Jim,
If the carving on a Woodsrunner annoys some people, be prepared for the wrath of the Hawken gods if you follow up with one for your next product.
I already have my sales tag line... "What a Hawken should have been"
Think that will get under anybody's skin!
.....that would be Ohio rifles.....or any one of those finely crafted rifles from the great mid-western part of the country: Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Missouri
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Gaeckle now watch that reference to Michigan..LOL .Especially for the current Contemporary Builders. Not me of course but Jud Brennan, Dennis Priddy, Tom Castor , Jack Duprey and a slew of others....and that there Ohio feller who makes those kits....Just saying....
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Gaeckle now watch that reference to Michigan..LOL .Especially for the current Contemporary Builders. Not me of course but Jud Brennan, Dennis Priddy, Tom Castor , Jack Duprey and a slew of others....and that there Ohio feller who makes those kits....Just saying....
In that group of illustrious makers is none other than Dick Miller who made a very interesting rifle. It's typical of Dicks decoration in the carving and engraving arena, but he supplied a placard describing the rifle
(https://i.ibb.co/qssSwxD/20220819-162559.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k887FMG)
Nobody else other than Dick could pull this off. I watched the crowd at the 2022 CLA Show wander past his display and I wonder how many people actually read what he had written.
As a side note, Dick was in the waste water business and always bragged about "being number one in the number 2 bussiness"
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Gaeckle, that is classic! Love it.
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It is certainly wonderful to receive compliments on one’s artistic creations.
My experience is that the artist is often his own worst critic.
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Looks good….very nice. Illigitamus non carborundum.
mikeyfirelock
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I believe Mr. Brooks said it all; “Nifty”
Dave
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Just found this nifty thread. Enjoyed every bit of it. Even learned a little more.
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First, I really don’t know why some find the kit carving to be so offensive and so inflammatory? It’s okay if you don’t like it, but it seems there must be more that I don’t understand.
I don't where the other thread went, but as I believe I posted then, it simply looks like a CNC carving. It makes compromises for the tooling with the shape of the cuts and every line is perfect.
I spent 25 years at the sharp end of computer graphics, (VFX), and the biggest challenge to make things look 'real' was to add enough dirt, noise and imperfections, so that people would not look at it and go 'that must be CGI'. It's the same case here. It simply screams CNC at me and I'm not a fan of the look.
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I have carved a good handful of rifle stocks and, for me, the hardest part is the design phase. The carving part is not that difficult. The carving on the woodsrunner would stand alone without the parallel shading. Remember that the folks assembling the rifles posess 'some' skill. The layout is done and the scrolls are cut, so all you need is 'option one' leave it alone, 'option two' cut bevels on the scrolls here here and here 'option three' drop the entire backgroung and sculpt the raised objects. For a high end product kit I would want enough latitude to bend the details or leave them alone. I personally like to build rifles from trees that I have cut down and sawn into planks, but I think that the kits that you sell are top notch and an amazing adaptation of machine tools put to artistic applications.
Clint W
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I like this carving design. It fills the space well and does not look too busy or over the top.
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I’m really not a fan of a lot of carving or inlay on guns, but in my opinion this is very tastefully done. I’m now considering a carved Woodsrunner for my next assembly.
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OK' I've got to get into this. First of all the whole concept of producing a rifle that 10 year old can put together does not make you a gunmaker. It's the product of a talented engineer who went beyond what ever he learned in college as an engineer. And became one of the most talented and original makers in the country. How many people has it brought into muzzleloading with a great rifle to start with. The flow and shading of the carving is not only exceptional-it's identifiable-from across a room.
I just finished a carved woodsruner. I put it together in shootable condition in 1 1/4 hours. That can be cut in half. Other than the box. The box slowed me down. too tight. 2 hours getting the right slop and snik with the release. Just a little thought required.
I think I will put on items for sale and see what happens albeit with some additions. Call it professional risk. On a site of gun builders-not buyers.
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Well spoken, Bill.
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Well, Jim, as the old adage goes, "You can't please everybody, so why try". I build what I'm paid to build, whether I like the style or not. Seems to me you're selling a lot of Woodsrunners, both fancy and plain. I say keep up the good work.
Semper Fi
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I like it. So do a lot of others. If you really don't like it, purchase the rifle without the carving option and do it yourself. How this has become a contentious issue is beyond me ::)
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Jim Kibler.
It will never please the HC/PC police, if that is a quest. They are people I will never understand. They get on sites stating this is wrong, that is wrong, & You are wrong, etc. because it is not PC/HC. The original they saw in a book was like this.......... Like we can see the other 300-500 lost rifles the guy may have made & Only One 1 survived ?? He may have built 14 variations of that Same Rifle.
Then they BUY a precarved stock, lock, barrel, sights, Everything to assemble that rifle, & theirs is HC/PC cause they assembled it ? but that is OK. YOU are still wrong.
I say it's a dang fine looking rifle & I know I would be proud of it. Better than I could
build. The dang finish is awesome too. Someone mention the ? $400 to carve it may be a tad much. I won't carve one for $ 400, & they would not either if they could carve.
Its a very nice rifle, regardless of any negative responses.
You have made a Considerable contribution to the ML world & I appreciate it.
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In June I had the privilege of visiting Jim's shop after leaving the KRA. I was amazed at what he has done. He has proved and improved and reinvented the gold standard on what a long rifle should look like and at a very reasonable price. My hat off to the standards you have set. You should be proud of your product!!
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We need "like" buttons...
Why?
If you like it, just type “I like it”
Then we end up with a dozen extra comments in the thread. :o
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Having completed three JK's I second Howard's comment!!!
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Some carving is so extreme that it probably took more time than making a rifle of any kind.Personally,I think it's OK but I don't want it.
When I came into this forum it was Taylor Sapergia who read my pedigree and I do have a preference for the Eastern caplock rifles made by Whitmore and other Eastern makers.I had Leonard Meadows build a very Southern long rifle with a 44" barrel and he asked me if I wanted any carving and I said "None at all".It was on a wall rack with my own Whitmore with lock scope sight plus a Whitworth 451 that was a full match rifle for long range in semi military configuration.I have never owned a carved engraved gun except for a Holland&Holland side by side breech loader and it was on the smae rack as the 3 muzzle loaders
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I like some carving, but less than comes on the runner. I am not a fan of those small straight lines in the carving area. That being said, the products coming out of the Kibler shop, are light years ahead of what
Kit producers offered. I have only put together a couple, and it was a joy, compared to other work I have done