Carving

[Jim Kibler]

I just tried to post on the other thread, but it didn’t seem to go through.  So, I’ll try to remember what I said…

First, I really don’t know why some find the kit carving to be so offensive and so inflammatory?  It’s okay if you don’t like it, but it seems there must be more that I don’t understand.

So here’s my assessment of my own work…. It’s good, but can be better.  When compared to the vast  majority of carving done today it stands up well.  This is from someone who has paid their dues.  Funny thing is, most who have ability and have also paid their dues are generally supportive.

If you want me to take your opinions more seriously, show some of your own work to help show how ours could be better.

Over the last month or so, I’ve been working on new relief carving.  It’s not been easy, but I think I’m gaining on it.  Remember that none of this would have seemed possible just a few years ago.

Here’s a few pictures of the one rifle I finished.  Looking back I think it looks pretty decent…

[J.M.Browning]

I really like this work very nice !

[Glenn Dellaway]

I have read many think it is overdone. The original had much simpler more tasteful carving. Of course “there is no accounting for taste” but that is the sentiment of so many potential customers.

I believe in your earlier films on you tube you mentioned you have plans to do a simpler relief carved variant more in spirit of the original. I think it would be a hit.

Also if the carving option didn’t blow the price up by $400 that sure would be nice. A simpler/less amount of carving at least as a secondary option for the Woodsrunner and especially offered at a slightly lesser price would be ideal.

[Robby]

Truly amazed by the innovation and creativity displayed by the Kibler folks, nicely designed rifles to begin with and now this. Maybe there is some way to tell that this is done with CNC technology, but from the pictures I don't see it. Nicely designed as well.

robby

[A Scanlan]

Little resemblance to the original rifle dubbed the "woodsrunner" or the "ridge runner". 

[Jim Kibler]

Little resemblance to the original rifle dubbed the "woodsrunner" or the "ridge runner".

You think?  Now I’m confused.  Here I was trying to make a copy.  Guess I missed a little…. What’s a ridge runner anyway?

[Seth Isaacson]

I think that rifle is absolutely beautiful, and that is coming from someone who generally prefers plainer but nicely shaped long rifles rather than the fancier ones.

[Bigmon]

I am a fan of Kibler's work.  Best option available for those who cannot afford a big money custom gun.
But to keep it simple,  "that's what they make chocolate and vanilla".
We are fortunate to have this option.

[Mike Brooks]

That's actually a stunning gun. Aside from the carving, the color and texture are quite attractive. Well finished and warm gun in my opinion.

[Dave Marsh]

Well done, Jim.  That gun is beautiful. Keep up the great work and I don't think you have to explain yourself.  You are a master.  Thanks for being around, easily accessible and extremely helpful.   Dave

[HSmithTX]

I think there are probably less than a handful of people on this forum that can begin to understand what it took to draw the carving, model the carving, process and post, then prove and improve the code, tool testing, etc, to get the actual output on the stock to look the way it does.  All doable, obviously, but it's a mountain of work that has been executed SUPERBLY, far and away better than all but a few will understand.  It is my opinion that if you don't like it that's fine, but to tinkle on it because you don't like it or think it costs too much is not a good move.  Keep moving,  don't buy it. Want something different?  Vote with your wallet, ask for it and you might get it.   

[Seth Isaacson]

Agreed! For those that don't like it for whatever reason, they can already buy the kit without the carving and leave it uncarved or try it themselves. My friends had the colonial and now one has the woods runner, and he finished it up great and it feels fantastic. Kibler's products are fantastic.

[Mick C]

 just want to throw in my two pennies and say that I love the carving. The finish on the rifle that Mr. Kibler is showing us the pictures of here is absolutely exceptional and really shows off the carving well, IMHO.

If my hands were not full of arthritis and I wasn't now on a fixed income and half crippled, I'd love to purchase one of these kits with the carving, and try my hand at it. In fact I may just do it anyway one of these days.

Thank you Jim Kibler for your wonderful contributions to our obsession/hobby/pastime.

[Mike payne]

Jim I think a lot of critics of the carving on your woods runner are not capable of doing equal quality work. I think it is beautiful I am trying to teach myself to carve longrifles and hope to come close to your work someday. Keep up the great work you have done a lot for making this hobby affordable for a lot of people.

Mike

[Pro Libertate]

Don’t let it get to you, Jim… consider the source! You simply cannot please everybody. Your carving is as beautiful as CNC carving is ever gonna’ get, and you need make no apologies for it.

I think you get out of a Kibler kit what you put into it. I’ve got to be honest… I had seen a Woodsrunner with extra fancy maple stock and the CNC engraving up for sale on the Muzzleloading Forum a little over a month ago, and I was not terribly impressed. But the individual that put the kit together used a dark espresso-like stain and high gloss finish that didn’t showcase the natural beauty of the wood— in fact, it was a hindrance to it. The example that you’ve shared with us here is absolutely gorgeous, and I’d be proud to own it! Say… is it for sale? 

[James Rogers]

I can look at the CNC carving on the Kibler Woodsrunner and immediately see it as Jim's work. What many who are making comments (in ignorance) about the carving looking too mechanical don't realize is that Jim's incised carving by hand would look to most exactly like the CNC work. He is that meticulous and that good.
This has been a compensated advertisement and I am looking forward to my 16 bore  fowling piece kit in English walnut any day now.. 
Yes, this last part is purely in jest.

[A Scanlan]

Here is a link to several photos of the original woodsrunner.  My remark is that the original does not have the elaborate carving.  I am making no other observation but I do have a copy of the original and I have handled the original and they are quite different.  As to the name, "ridge runner" does on occasion appear in scholarly articles as some from ASAC but Gusler's name is far more widely recognized.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=49297.0

[axelp]

I've never worked a CNC machine, but I am amazed at what a skilled craftsman can do with this tool. I am an artist that started out with nothing more than pencils and brushes-- but quickly adopted the computer as a worktool as it became available and when the typography and other tools became advanced enough to make it an asset and not a liability. I learned how to use a computer over time, so my work looked more natural. It allowed me to explore design ideas that I could not have easily done with traditional tools. it was fun to push the tool and see where I could take it. It was hard work-- It was good work but it was different.

A skilled artist, or a carver/engraver's handwork looks better and feels better than computer work. Human hands give the work a heartbeat. A skilled artist or CNC craftsman can come pretty darn close though, because they are able to transfer some of that humanity to the work-- but not all of it, because of the "tool" offers less physical interaction. The tool makes the difference of how close the hands are to the work.

An example recently: A few years ago, I ran across a young blacksmith that was hammering out  really outstanding hand forged axes. I wanted to encourage him and I also wanted a camp ax. I bought one. In the subsequent years, this young man expanded his business and now has a handful of employees and a warehouse full of machines that help him hammer out more inventory. His axes are still quite impressive and they look much more refined. I am personally more happy with the early ax he made for me than his newer "better" products. Why is that? I see his hands in the earlier ax, but arguably, his "hands" are on his later ones too-- just in a different way? Maybe its nostalgia... and this young lad is quite successful now and I would begrudge no man that.

K

[Mike Brooks]

Here is a link to several photos of the original woodsrunner.  My remark is that the original does not have the elaborate carving.  I am making no other observation but I do have a copy of the original and I have handled the original and they are quite different.  As to the name, "ridge runner" does on occasion appear in scholarly articles as some from ASAC but Gusler's name is far more widely recognized.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=49297.0

I see quite a few of these finished with all sorts of carving designed and executed by the builder. It's pretty obvious many of these guys putting these "woodsrunners" together want something more than a gun as plain as the original is. So, they carve them in ways that make them happy.  No big deal is it? After all, we have no idea what more extensive carving may have looked like by the original's builder. I personally am not that crazy about the carving on the original or it's architecture. Kibler greatly improved the architecture and appeal of the original. I have handled the original and the "Feather rifle" in person several times.

[oldtravler61]

  Just my two cents.. I'm not a carver either..but to me it's like looking at a painting or any other craft. Just because the person can't do it themselves doesn't mean they don't have an opinion.  Everyone has their likes and dislikes. Personally I like the carving but I dislike all the hash marks.
I think it is unnecessary overly done. My opinion only  and simpler is better.
  If you get a chance take a look at Ethan Yazel and how he did his Woodsrunner. For me it is by far a very well done rifle. Simple and elegant.
  Maybe it's time to quit belittling people because they  can't do what you can!  But appreciate a difference of opinion. Besides who wants to go to the gun range and see someone else with the same rifle you have ? I know I don't.  !

[Jim Kibler]

I think the problem is in part due to people not realizing how little they know and understand.  This doesn’t deter them from being outspoken though.  After the frustration passes, about all I can do is shake my head…

[Jim Kibler]

image upload

[Jim Kibler]

Boy, I just can’t get over how mechanical and machine made this carving above looks.  And all those nasty parallel lines… Terrible looking stuff.

[bones92]

Well, it looks pretty good to me, Jim.   I like it.

[bluenoser]

I think the problem is in part due to people not realizing how little they know and understand.  This doesn’t deter them from being outspoken though.  After the frustration passes, about all I can do is shake my head…

Perhaps people know and understand a good deal more than you give them credit for.  Also, you would likely be well served by giving some open-minded thought to what they have to say, rather than writing them off as outspoken know-nothings.