AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Bill Raby on September 02, 2024, 07:57:53 PM
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This is going to be a fun one. It will be a schuetzen rifle. If you don't know, that is the 19th century offhand target competition rifle. These were always percussion rifles. But I like flintlock better so this will be a flintlock rifle. It will get a palm rest and I will be making an adjustable sight from scratch. There are a few things that will make this a very challenging rifle to build. It will get the carving and engraving and all the fancy stuff. I will probably go nuts with it and have a lot of fun. I am doing video of the whole project from beginning to end and going into detail on every step along the way. I will post a new video on Rumble every weekend with a link here. I will be posting videos to Patreon as soon as the editing is finished. So if you want to jump ahead a bit look there. A link to Patreon will be posted in the description of each video on Rumble. If you click on the "Show More" in the description box it will show a sort of table of contents for what is in each video. The last couple gun building series that I did ended up being over 100 videos and 50 to 60 hours total. So you get to see every part of building a gun from beginning to end with detailed explanations of what I am doing. Hopefully you enjoy it and maybe even learn a few little tricks. Check back every weekend for a link to the next video. Here is the first one.
Part 1
https://rumble.com/v5dbbxh-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-1.html
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Very interesting,a flintlock Schuetzen.I made a bunch of cap locks for the shop of Helmut Mohr in Mayen Hausen,Gemany and still have a semi finished stock for one.This should be an interesting/different project to follow and good luck.I made a 38 caliber American style minus the pronged butt plate with a Hoyt 38 caliber barrel for a 300 grain bullet and wish I had kept it.It was a cap lock.Swiehundert metres freistand.
Bob Roller
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OH NO!!! It won't be HC!!?? The mind will numb and the brain will seize!!
But I'll watch as it's gonna be really 8)
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I have never seen one of these built as a flintlock and there are some good reasons for that. It will be limited to round ball so it won't be competitive against a rifle shooting the long heavy bullets at longer ranges. But it is likely to be a lot more accurate than the typical longrifle. Shooting range that I go to is only 100 yards and I have never entered a shooting contest anyway so it don't really matter that much.
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OH NO!!! It won't be HC!!?? The mind will numb and the brain will seize!!
But I'll watch as it's gonna be really 8)
The history correct part went out the window with this one. At least as far as the flintlock part goes. Other than that I will try to stay with the history.
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There is no reason it can't/won't work.A fast lock and the vent being aligned with the pan will give very fast ignition and that L&R lock has a small pan and I hope a fast mainspring.
Bob Roller
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I’ll be watching this too, Bill.
In the back of my mind I’ve had a desire to build a strictly off-hand flinter for 25-50 yard target shooting.
31” or so heavy barrel, short fore end, no ramrod. I think you’re on to something.
Bob
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Bill- just curious why you just don’t buy a pre-carved stock??
🤣
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Pre-carved stocks are harder to work with than starting from a blank. Also pre-carved stocks are limited to what is commercially for sale. With a blank you can build anything that you want. Pre-carved stock will only work with a specific barrel, lock, buttplate, etc. Pre-carved stock limits your choice of wood to what the supplier has on hand. This one is just an average piece of maple. Not a big deal. But when you are looking at highly figured Turkish walnut that costs a few thousand dollars, there is no pre-carved option. Pre-carved stocks have a fixed length of pull. They also usually have too much distance between the barrel and ramrod.
Pre-carved stocks take away almost all of your choices in what you can build and add a lot of extra problems. Nothing is squared off on a pre-carved stock. That makes everything far more difficult. When you build from a blank you have no limits to what you can build. Any errors will be the ones that you make yourself. There is no advantage to working with a pre-carved stock and many disadvantages. Many people seem to think that it is an easy way to learn. It is not. They look almost finished so it seems like less work. That is all in your head. They are 90% inlet. You only have 90% left to go. But the real problem is when they are 105% inlet. That happens a lot.
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Pre-carved stocks are harder to work with than starting from a blank. Also pre-carved stocks are limited to what is commercially for sale. With a blank you can build anything that you want. Pre-carved stock will only work with a specific barrel, lock, buttplate, etc. Pre-carved stock limits your choice of wood to what the supplier has on hand. This one is just an average piece of maple. Not a big deal. But when you are looking at highly figured Turkish walnut that costs a few thousand dollars, there is no pre-carved option. Pre-carved stocks have a fixed length of pull. They also usually have too much distance between the barrel and ramrod.
Pre-carved stocks take away almost all of your choices in what you can build and add a lot of extra problems. Nothing is squared off on a pre-carved stock. That makes everything far more difficult. When you build from a blank you have no limits to what you can build. Any errors will be the ones that you make yourself. There is no advantage to working with a pre-carved stock and many disadvantages. Many people seem to think that it is an easy way to learn. It is not. They look almost finished so it seems like less work. That is all in your head. They are 90% inlet. You only have 90% left to go. But the real problem is when they are 105% inlet. That happens a lot.
A big AMEN!
Caplocks make me flinch.
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A few years ago I was recovering from open heart surgery and needed a "rehab" project. I chose to build a schuetzen from a precarved stock, fun project, got me back in the shop, and for me opened up a whole new field of research.
Bill, have fun with this new build!
Kevin
(https://i.ibb.co/nmTTWhn/Schuetzenfinish2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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I built this for a "small frame" person. All brass components made from sheet brass...buttstock in NWT fashion for ease of shouldering....30" .45 cal barrel for low recoil....Hawken style hook breech made from an old CVA barrel with easy to remove wedge keys for easy cleaning.
Not HC but a fine little rifle that shoots well.
(https://i.imgur.com/AkibkWRl.jpg)
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Did they have Scheutzen Matches in the Flintlock era? My great-grandfather belonged to a Schuetzenverein in New Jersey prior to WW1.
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After WW1 nearly all things German faded away including the Schuetzenvereins.Verein means society in English.I have a precarved stock for a schuetzen rifle but haven't looked at it for a while.I used the L&R plates and hammers they offer for these guns and made a "3 pin"mechanism for them.German out side and English mechanism made in the USA ;D.Most of these went to Germany.
Bob Roller
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I built this for a "small frame" person. All brass components made from sheet brass...buttstock in NWT fashion for ease of shouldering....30" .45 cal barrel for low recoil....Hawken style hook breech made from an old CVA barrel with easy to remove wedge keys for easy cleaning.
Not HC but a fine little rifle that shoots well.
(https://i.imgur.com/AkibkWRl.jpg)
This is similar in profile to the 38 caliber bullet gun I made and wish I hadn't sold.Mine had steel butt plate and trigger guard and a single trigger.I have always liked these Eastern or New York rifles and the Grant rifle by N.G.Whitmore set a bench mark to me but I will never come close and couldn't when was still far away from fossilization.My rifle had no rib or rod.
Bob Roller
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Bill, I have enjoyed all your videos. Your "means and methods" are very similar to my own, but I still learn from you.
I always look forward to Saturday mornings and a new "Raby video".
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Did they have Scheutzen Matches in the Flintlock era? My great-grandfather belonged to a Schuetzenverein in New Jersey prior to WW1.
Far as I can tell the schuetzen rifles did not come about until about 1850. Well past the flintlock era. I have never seen or heard of a flintlock schuetzen rifle so the one I am building is not historically correct at all.
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OH NO!!! It won't be HC!!?? The mind will numb and the brain will seize!!
But I'll watch as it's gonna be really 8)
Yes indeed and terminal flatulence will occur.I looked at my semi finished Schuetzen stock and to me the angle of the thing is not what I'd want as a shooter.It's cut for a one inch octagon barrel.The few half stocks I made have all been influenced by the Grant rifle but looked like they were made by Elmer Fudd in comparison.I have seen only ONE attempt at copying the Grant rifle and it looked good including the color but it had a $40 lock that killed it.I showed the maker one of my "4 pin" locks I made for Jim McLemore but the $250 price was a turn off.
This was at the CLA show before the new venue was built.Please keep us in the "loop"on the schuetzen build because it's a rare build here in the US of A .Viele gruss aus WVa senden dir.
Bob Roller
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I don't know if this is original or not, but it is something like what you want you build I think.
Mike :-*
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/heavy-barrel-flintlock-target-rifle-with-tube-sig-364-c-79b4c9ea40?objectID=191199607&algIndex=upcoming_lots_prod&queryID=3a3074a4ff40aa2ffa53e146a6f34ddb
(https://i.ibb.co/VJfhdKf/H3925-L381612017.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hL3nkq3)
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Part 2
https://rumble.com/v5dyqf9-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-2.html
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Lots of compromises! You are trying to maintain the profile of the original, yet need to use non-specialized components.
The trigger guard is about the only part that can be adapted easily. Have you thought about making a trigger assembly to fit? With your machining abilities, it might be something to consider.
By all means, do maintain that big belly curve; it is a prime identifying characteristic. The forearm also needs to be rather stout so as to attach the palm piece, which also needs to be adjustable for distance below the barrel.
Tis a worth-while project to take on; I look forward to seeing you tackle it.
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The trigger assembly will be getting some major modifications. Not quite sure how I am going to make it work yet, but I will deal with that when I get to it. And the big belly curve will stay in there. Fore arm doesn't need to be stout at all. The palm rest attached to the barrel. Many of these schuetzen rifles did not have any fore arm at all. I think making a peep sight adjustable for elevation and windage is the part that will put my machining abilities to the test.
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I have no idea how many Schuetzen locks and triggers I sent to Germany but the stocks were from Pecatonica and I bent them to suit that curvature.I used the L&R plates and hammers and the semi finished stock I have is inlet for a lock plate and it isn't the L&R.Be careful bending the trigger bar and put the pins and screws in it so the holes won't collapse.
Bob Roller
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Part 3
https://rumble.com/v5ew45h-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-3.html
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Part 4
https://rumble.com/v5frgzp-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-4.html
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Part 5
https://rumble.com/v5gn7qt-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-5.html
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Enjoyed this one, Bill, as usual.
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Glad to hear that you liked it!
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Part 6
https://rumble.com/v5hiq7p-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-6.html
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Part 7
https://rumble.com/v5idwoh-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-7.html
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Bill, clear and concise "how-to" use the mill, or drill press, to machine that barrel channel - thanks.
But, I've been wondering for a long time if, having a straight, non-tapered or swamped, barrel, would it be possible to have a mill cutter that is almost precisely the shape of the bottom half of the barrel? Complete with the 45-degree flats?
I can see that it would be a costly item, and only specific to that particular size barrel, but thinking of mass production.
About how much more power would be needed from the mill itself?
With that ebony on the forestock, going to be a very handsome Schuetzen rifle!
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It is possible to make a cutter from a Speed Bore drill and I made a one inch inletting tool for an octagon barrel and I used it in a milling machine running at maximum RPM.Experience in tool making comes in on these odd jobs.
Bob Roller
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A mill cutter that matched the barrel would certainly work and make it a fast job. I am sure getting one made would be expensive. Tool making is something that I know nothing about. I just have a small mill with a little 2 horsepower motor. I have never had an issue with it not being powerful enough. But then I don't ever try to run it very fast.
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Thank you both.
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Craig&Bill,
I used an 8620 Clausing vertical mill with maybe 3 HP running full throttle.The speedbor drill is a make shift thing designed as a drill but I ground the pilot/point off and then grind the angle using an ordinary bench grinder and a 45 degree gauge.After the angles are established
then another angle is ground across the 45 degree to give a sharp edge.Years ago I "part timed"in a shop that reground and sharpened end mills and did bunch of them for Bill Large.The shop I worked in was called Universal Grinding Services and we stayed busy.I also worked in a nearby shop that catered to the coal mining industry and Bob Null who owned it needed someone who understood the idea of a bolt circle and a vertical mill with an indexing table.Thanks for the picture progress on the Schuetzen/Scheibenbuchse.
Bob Roller
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Part 8
https://rumble.com/v5j9iaq-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-8.html
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Part 9
https://rumble.com/v5k6935-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-9.html
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Part 10
https://rumble.com/v5lc322-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-10.html
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Part 11
https://rumble.com/v5ng2ae-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-11.html
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Part 12
https://rumble.com/v5pvqnk-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-12.html
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Good work there, Bill, even if messy.
Dampen your paper towels with denatured alcohol; it really helps clean up the goop from the metal. But do not over-use the alcohol, as that can dilute the epoxy.
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Making a big mess is fun sometimes!
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Part 13
https://rumble.com/v5s8ag8-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-13.html
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Part 14
https://rumble.com/v5uiagb-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-14.html
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Part 15
https://rumble.com/v5wvobh-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-15.html
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Part 16
https://rumble.com/v5z5u05-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-16.html
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Part 17
https://rumble.com/v61fabw-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-17.html
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Part 18
https://rumble.com/v63kost-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-18.html
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Part 19
https://rumble.com/v65qloy-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-19.html
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https://rumble.com/v683u0j-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-20.html
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Part 21
https://rumble.com/v6alugd-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-21.html
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Part 22
https://rumble.com/v6d7hzs-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-22.html
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Part 23
https://rumble.com/v6fpwda-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-23.html
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Part 24
https://rumble.com/v6ihvw7-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-24.html
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Part 25
https://rumble.com/v6l0wvg-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-25.html
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Part 26
https://rumble.com/v6nueyr-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-26.html
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Part 27
https://rumble.com/v6pxjsm-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-27.html
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Part 28
https://rumble.com/v6qbd8o-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-28.html
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Part 29
https://rumble.com/v6qnvh8-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-29.html
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Part 30
https://rumble.com/v6r0qbs-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-30.html
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Part 31
https://rumble.com/v6rcyv4-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-31.html
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Part 32
https://rumble.com/v6rocex-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-32.html
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Great video, Bill! You really make the importance of prepping everything before starting the drilling or tapping.
Missed my "Saturday Morning With Bill" - this danged Agent Orange crapola sometimes precludes everything else. So changed it to "Sunday Morning..."
On the fit of the lockplate - do you think the forward bolt will help draw the plate closer to the barrel? It just seems to be drawn inward at the rear, tilting it back a wee bit. Probably the forward bolt will even things out a bit.
Loving all the "intros"!
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No forward lock bolt on this gun. Just the single lock bolt. But not to worry, it all turns out good. The real pain comes with making the rear sight. I should be able to get that all worked out eventually.
Agent Orange sounds like some nasty stuff. I work with some pretty nasty chemicals also. HAZMAT suits are not very comfortable on hot days but wear it anyway.
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Part 33
https://rumble.com/v6rzh8f-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-33.html
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Part 34
https://rumble.com/v6saa6v-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-34.html
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Part 35
https://rumble.com/v6sl6mn-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-35.html
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My week is now complete, Bill! Another great Saturday morning "cartoon" really helps out this house-bound old fogey.
I had been wondering how you were going to inlet that curved trigger plate; turned out it wasn't too difficult at all.
Coming along nicely, going to be a great Schuetzen Rifle.
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That inletting that trigger plate got pretty awkward with that curve in the stock. The real fun comes when I figure out the trigger plate doesn't fit in the trigger guard. Then comes the rear sight. Yikes! This gun is going to turn into a real challenge.
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Part 36
https://rumble.com/v6sw6br-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-36.html
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Part 37
https://rumble.com/v6t6y3d-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-37.html
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Part 38
https://rumble.com/v6thjjz-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-38.html
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thank you for your video's i look forward every Saturday
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Hey Bill - they make a new tool now, oh, maybe 200 years ago or something. It's called a center punch. Nifty little thing, with a very sharp point of carbide steel or sumtin very hard. You can put that sharp little point right on a piece of steel, tap it with a hammer, and have a very precise divot right exactly where you want to start a drill bit.
Some of these "center punches" are even spring-loaded - just put the tip on the selected spot and push the tool downward. Makes a nifty pinprick right on the selected spot.
Any of you readers who has a law enforcement officer for a friend, give them a spring-loaded center punch. Fits easily in their pocket, and is just the ticket for opening a car window to allow access to a reluctant perpetrator who doesn't want to be friendly. Much easier than beating on the glass with your hand or baton. Carried one for years, even though I only had to use it twice.
As mentioned before, really enjoy your videos; keep them coming!
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I like the center drill better.
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Part 39
https://rumble.com/v6tst61-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-39.html
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Part 40
https://rumble.com/v6u3yf3-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-40.html
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Part 41
https://rumble.com/v6uf57b-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-41.html
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Part 42
https://rumble.com/v6urclj-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-42.html
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Nice work Bill. Takes a lot of patience and good tools. And good hands too!
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Part 43
https://rumble.com/v6v3inn-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-43.html
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As a lover of puns, the first half was quite boring. Good job, as I had been wondering about using either one or two screws.
Quite an interesting butt plate, slightly similar to some of the "Kentucky" hooked butt, also used across the chest. Yours is quite ornate, tho well suited for the rifle.
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It works exactly the same as the normal hooked but plates, but is much more stable. Trigger hand does not support any weight at all. That butt plate is essentially the same as what they still use on the modern target rifles. Difference is that the modern ones are all adjustable. Look up Walther KK500 target rifle and you will see just how similar the modern target rifles are to the old schuetzen rifles.
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Long ago and far away, I used one for several years. Very comfortable to shoot.
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Part 44
https://rumble.com/v6vfzcv-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-44.html
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Part 45
https://rumble.com/v6vqqlz-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-45.html
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Part 46
https://rumble.com/v6w29s8-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-46.html
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Part 47
https://rumble.com/v6wdmw0-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-47.html
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Part 48
https://rumble.com/v6wp26k-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-48.html
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Another fine video. Thanks.
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Part 49
https://rumble.com/v6x0cei-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-49.html
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Part 50
https://rumble.com/v6xcaae-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-50.html
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every thing ok bill i miss my Saturday updates?
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Part 51
https://rumble.com/v6xnbl8-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-51.html
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thanks bill
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Part 52
https://rumble.com/v6xyo1c-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-52.html
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Part 53
https://rumble.com/v6y9c5o-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-53.html
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Part 54
https://rumble.com/v6ykbb6-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-54.html
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I have struggled with lock panels. Going to try your approach next time .
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Enjoyable. Loved the little patch.
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Part 55
https://rumble.com/v6yvngo-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-55.html