Author Topic: Building a Schuetzen Rifle  (Read 2370 times)

Offline Bill Raby

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Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« on: September 02, 2024, 07:57:53 PM »
This is going to be a fun one. It will be a schuetzen rifle. If you don't know, that is the 19th century offhand target competition rifle. These were always percussion rifles. But I like flintlock better so this will be a flintlock rifle. It will get a palm rest and I will be making an adjustable sight from scratch. There are a few things that will make this a very challenging rifle to build. It will get the carving and engraving and all the fancy stuff. I will probably go nuts with it and have a lot of fun. I am doing video of the whole project from beginning to end and going into detail on every step along the way. I will post a new video on Rumble every weekend with a link here. I will be posting videos to Patreon as soon as the editing is finished. So if you want to jump ahead a bit look there. A link to Patreon will be posted in the description of each video on Rumble. If you click on the "Show More" in the description box it will show a sort of table of contents for what is in each video. The last couple gun building series that I did ended up being over 100 videos and 50 to 60 hours total. So you get to see every part of building a gun from beginning to end with detailed explanations of what I am doing. Hopefully you enjoy it and maybe even learn a few little tricks. Check back every weekend for a link to the next video. Here is the first one.

Part 1

https://rumble.com/v5dbbxh-schuetzen-rifle-build-part-1.html

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2024, 09:04:18 PM »
Very interesting,a flintlock Schuetzen.I made a bunch of cap locks for the shop of Helmut Mohr in Mayen Hausen,Gemany and still have a semi finished stock for one.This should be an interesting/different project to follow and good luck.I made a 38 caliber American style minus the pronged butt plate with a Hoyt 38 caliber barrel for a 300 grain bullet and wish I had kept it.It was a cap lock.Swiehundert metres freistand.

Bob Roller

Offline Steeltrap

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2024, 10:46:03 PM »
OH NO!!!  It won't be HC!!??  The mind will numb and the brain will seize!!

But I'll watch as it's gonna be really  8)

Offline Bill Raby

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2024, 10:51:12 PM »
I have never seen one of these built as a flintlock and there are some good reasons for that. It will be limited to round ball so it won't be competitive against a rifle shooting the long heavy bullets at longer ranges. But it is likely to be a lot more accurate than the typical longrifle. Shooting range that I go to is only 100 yards and I have never entered a shooting contest anyway so it don't really matter that much.

Offline Bill Raby

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2024, 10:53:39 PM »
OH NO!!!  It won't be HC!!??  The mind will numb and the brain will seize!!

But I'll watch as it's gonna be really  8)

The history correct part went out the window with this one. At least as far as the flintlock part goes. Other than that I will try to stay with the history.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2024, 11:51:11 PM »
There is no reason it can't/won't work.A fast lock and the vent being aligned with the pan will give very fast ignition and that L&R lock has a small pan and I hope a fast mainspring.
Bob Roller

Online Spalding

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2024, 11:56:52 PM »
I’ll be watching this too, Bill.
In the back of my mind I’ve had a desire to build a strictly off-hand flinter for 25-50 yard target shooting.
31” or so heavy barrel, short fore end, no ramrod. I think you’re on to something.

Bob

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2024, 03:18:45 AM »
Bill- just curious why you just don’t buy a pre-carved stock??

🤣

Offline Bill Raby

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2024, 03:44:15 AM »
Pre-carved stocks are harder to work with than starting from a blank. Also pre-carved stocks are limited to what is commercially for sale. With a blank you can build anything that you want. Pre-carved stock will only work with a specific barrel, lock, buttplate, etc. Pre-carved stock limits your choice of wood to what the supplier has on hand. This one is just an average piece of maple. Not a big deal. But when you are looking at highly figured Turkish walnut that costs a few thousand dollars, there is no pre-carved option. Pre-carved stocks have a fixed length of pull. They also usually have too much distance between the barrel and ramrod.

Pre-carved stocks take away almost all of your choices in what you can build and add a lot of extra problems. Nothing is squared off on a pre-carved stock. That makes everything far more difficult. When you build from a blank you have no limits to what you can build. Any errors will be the ones that you make yourself. There is no advantage to working with a pre-carved stock and many disadvantages. Many people seem to think that it is an easy way to learn. It is not. They look almost finished so it seems like less work. That is all in your head. They are 90% inlet. You only have 90% left to go. But the real problem is when they are 105% inlet. That happens a lot.

Offline Waksupi

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2024, 08:52:57 AM »
Pre-carved stocks are harder to work with than starting from a blank. Also pre-carved stocks are limited to what is commercially for sale. With a blank you can build anything that you want. Pre-carved stock will only work with a specific barrel, lock, buttplate, etc. Pre-carved stock limits your choice of wood to what the supplier has on hand. This one is just an average piece of maple. Not a big deal. But when you are looking at highly figured Turkish walnut that costs a few thousand dollars, there is no pre-carved option. Pre-carved stocks have a fixed length of pull. They also usually have too much distance between the barrel and ramrod.

Pre-carved stocks take away almost all of your choices in what you can build and add a lot of extra problems. Nothing is squared off on a pre-carved stock. That makes everything far more difficult. When you build from a blank you have no limits to what you can build. Any errors will be the ones that you make yourself. There is no advantage to working with a pre-carved stock and many disadvantages. Many people seem to think that it is an easy way to learn. It is not. They look almost finished so it seems like less work. That is all in your head. They are 90% inlet. You only have 90% left to go. But the real problem is when they are 105% inlet. That happens a lot.

A big AMEN!

Caplocks make me flinch.
Ric Carter
Somers, Montana

Offline WKevinD

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2024, 02:06:59 PM »
A few years ago I was recovering from open heart surgery and needed a "rehab" project. I chose to build a schuetzen from a precarved stock, fun project, got me back in the shop, and for me opened up a whole new field of research.
Bill, have fun with this new build!

Kevin



PEACE is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.  Thomas Jefferson

Offline Steeltrap

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2024, 02:24:41 PM »
I built this for a "small frame" person. All brass components made from sheet brass...buttstock in NWT fashion for ease of shouldering....30" .45 cal barrel for low recoil....Hawken style hook breech made from an old CVA barrel with easy to remove wedge keys for easy cleaning.

Not HC but a fine little rifle that shoots well.


Offline Tom Zack

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2024, 04:37:23 PM »
Did they have Scheutzen Matches in the Flintlock era? My great-grandfather  belonged to a Schuetzenverein in New Jersey prior to WW1.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2024, 05:13:18 PM »
After WW1 nearly all things German faded away including the Schuetzenvereins.Verein means society in English.I have a precarved stock for a schuetzen rifle but haven't looked at it for a while.I used the L&R plates and hammers they offer for these guns and made a "3 pin"mechanism for them.German out side and English mechanism made in the USA ;D.Most of these went to Germany.
Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2024, 05:27:01 PM »
I built this for a "small frame" person. All brass components made from sheet brass...buttstock in NWT fashion for ease of shouldering....30" .45 cal barrel for low recoil....Hawken style hook breech made from an old CVA barrel with easy to remove wedge keys for easy cleaning.

Not HC but a fine little rifle that shoots well.



This is similar in profile to the 38 caliber bullet gun I made and wish I hadn't sold.Mine had steel butt plate and trigger guard and a single trigger.I have always liked these Eastern or New York rifles and the Grant rifle by N.G.Whitmore set a bench mark to me but I will never come close and couldn't when was still far away from fossilization.My rifle had no rib or rod.
Bob Roller

« Last Edit: September 03, 2024, 05:41:06 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2024, 06:21:57 PM »
Bill, I have enjoyed all your videos.  Your "means and methods" are very similar to my own, but I still learn from you.

I always look forward to Saturday mornings and a new "Raby video".
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline Bill Raby

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2024, 03:25:07 AM »
Did they have Scheutzen Matches in the Flintlock era? My great-grandfather  belonged to a Schuetzenverein in New Jersey prior to WW1.

Far as I can tell the schuetzen rifles did not come about until about 1850. Well past the flintlock era. I have never seen or heard of a flintlock schuetzen rifle so the one I am building is not historically correct at all.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2024, 06:43:26 PM »
OH NO!!!  It won't be HC!!??  The mind will numb and the brain will seize!!

But I'll watch as it's gonna be really  8)
Yes indeed and terminal flatulence will occur.I looked at my semi finished Schuetzen stock and to me the angle of the thing is not what I'd want as a shooter.It's cut for a one inch octagon barrel.The few half stocks I made have all been influenced by the Grant rifle but looked like they were made by Elmer Fudd in comparison.I have seen only ONE attempt at copying the Grant rifle and it looked good including the color but it had a $40 lock that killed it.I showed the maker one of my "4 pin" locks I made for Jim McLemore but the $250 price was a turn off.
This was at the CLA show before the new venue was built.Please keep us in the "loop"on the schuetzen build because it's a rare build here in the US of A .Viele gruss aus WVa senden dir.
Bob Roller

 






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Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2024, 06:15:13 AM »

Offline Bill Raby

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2024, 08:16:45 AM »

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2024, 06:47:41 PM »
Lots of compromises!  You are trying to maintain the profile of the original, yet need to use non-specialized components.

The trigger guard is about the only part that can be adapted easily.  Have you thought about making a trigger assembly to fit?  With your machining abilities, it might be something to consider.

By all means, do maintain that big belly curve; it is a prime identifying characteristic.  The forearm also needs to be rather stout so as to attach the palm piece, which also needs to be adjustable for distance below the barrel.

Tis a worth-while project to take on; I look forward to seeing you tackle it.
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline Bill Raby

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2024, 08:23:27 PM »
The trigger assembly will be getting some major modifications. Not quite sure how I am going to make it work yet, but I will deal with that when I get to it. And the big belly curve will stay in there. Fore arm doesn't need to be stout at all. The palm rest attached to the barrel. Many of these schuetzen rifles did not have any fore arm at all. I think making a peep sight adjustable for elevation and windage is the part that will put my machining abilities to the test.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2024, 10:38:49 PM »
I have no idea how many Schuetzen locks and triggers I sent to Germany but the stocks were from Pecatonica and I bent them to suit that curvature.I used the L&R plates and hammers and the semi finished stock I have is inlet for a lock plate and it isn't the L&R.Be careful bending the trigger bar and put the pins and screws in it so the holes won't collapse.
Bob Roller

Offline Bill Raby

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2024, 10:00:17 AM »

Offline Bill Raby

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Re: Building a Schuetzen Rifle
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2024, 08:07:28 AM »