AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Dale Halterman on February 05, 2025, 06:09:35 PM
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So I am trying to be more HC in shooting from the pouch at the local club range. I have been using patching strips soaked with Lehigh Valley spray lube and cut at the muzzle.
Tried spit with uneven results. Need to experiment more. The other option is some kind of grease. The thing that worries me about grease is getting it on my hands and making them slick and getting it all oven the stock and ramrod.
I like having patch material cut in strips and hanging on the outside of the pouch, just looking for a more correct lube without making a mess.
Thanks
Dale H
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Historically your options are basically spit or various tallows/fats. Whale oil also although I don't think it was particularly common everywhere. Animal fats imho were everywhere, easy and relatively free.
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bear, hog ,whale. mutton deer tallow /oil
and I bet possum and racoon
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bear, hog ,whale. mutton deer tallow /oil
and I bet possum and racoon
I used to render raccoon and possum fat in the 1980s when I was trapping. A cup goes a long ways. It’s pretty thin and good for cold weather.
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Marmot oil was the best animal lube I have used. I suspect a Sept. groundhog might also be fat enough to render good oil from.
The marmot oil was the MOST water resistant oil I have ever seen. After handling the interior fat for rendering, I had to wash my
hands twice in dish detergent to get the oil off. One washing didn't work. A good lubricant it was, too. That is what I shot in my
.58 with Bill Large barrel, with .575" ball and .022" "brushed" denim patch.(washed twice and dried in a dryer)
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In the early days I imagine they used many forms of animal oil, grease or tallow depending on the area and animal availability. Sperm whale oil was probably used by people on the seaboard who could afford it. Patches were no only cut from strips at the Muzzle but people did precut and pre-lube patches.
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OK, let's say I want to lube patch strips with some form of animal fat/grease/tallow. Is there any validity to my concern about getting slick gunk all over my hands and gun during a range session of twenty to thirty shots?
Thanks
Dale H
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If handling a strip, I suspect so. With lubricated pre-cuts, we've never noticed this.
When using a strip, I use spit for lube, cutting them at the muzzle.
These are my containers for lubricated (or non lubed) precuts.
(https://i.ibb.co/wrZbNXzH/IMG-3243.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1JYpf5mV)
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I don't find using pre-lubed cut patches any problem and I really grease the heck out of them. I have seen some carry a wiping towel on their belt that I think is a great idea. I don't cut at the muzzle because I have almost all my gun barrels coned. With a coned barrel once I have the patched ball just below the crown of the barrel when I lift up on the strip to make the cut t often times just pulls the ball out of the barrel. Plusses and minuses to everything.
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Dale,
You need to experiment to find out.
Sort of experimental archaeology.
Never had trouble myself with patch material dipped in deer tallow.
Muskrat grease is a good grease too.
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I keep a hand towel handy and wipe my hands after each reload. It also helps control sweat in the summer.
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I like tallow. I suspect the bear oil was a common choice back in the day. Hunting bears for the oil and maybe hides was likely a paying operation but transporting the oil might have been an issue. I have used neatsfoot oil a lot. Putting oiled patches in a patchbox is probably a bad idea. Would find a way to soak into the wood even if it were sealed with finish. Tallow Works well and is documented and was also used to wipe the bore from my readings.
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What Dan says above about tallows.
Some are Pretty dry to the touch, and if a bit softer in summer still not a problem.
On a hunting pouch a strip of dressed patching can be hung, And a strip of dry cloth for degreasing hands if required and also for if a bore needs a wiping.
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OK, let's say I want to lube patch strips with some form of animal fat/grease/tallow. Is there any validity to my concern about getting slick gunk all over my hands and gun during a range session of twenty to thirty shots?
Thanks
Dale H
I don't worry at all about getting greases on my hands (helps keep my fingers from splitting) or on a gun (more waterproofing). And while now I'm just speculating, I don't think anyone historically did either. These guns were functional items and I don't think anyone at all worried about keeping them pristine or as-new, as evidenced by the condition of most survivors to the present day.
If the gun has a decent finish of any kind on it, some added animal grease/tallow isn't going to hurt anything.
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Am sure you are right, Eric.
In Mark Baker's book on the longhunters, he mentioned greasy rock creek or some such.
It seems their buckskins were so impregnated with grease, it was hard to lie on this flat rock to get a drink, without slipping into the water.
Both themselves and the rock were plain covered in grease....
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Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond to my questions. I really do appreciate it.
So here is my thinking at this time. I need to spend more time with patch strips and spit. My last experiences were disappointing, but maybe I was using too much or too little. Maybe needed to use a different patch thickness. Who knows.
Then, I will try some grease. What I have is beef tallow. My wife and I often use ground beef for things like chili, tacos, sloppy Joes, and so on and that requires the ground beef to be fried and the grease drained off. So, I have a jar of tallow in the kitchen. Just needs to be re-melted and strained. Read some articles on line last night and it appears that many people mix olive oil or bee's wax with their fat to adjust the consistency to their liking. So, more experimentation there, too.
My concern about grease on my hands had nothing to do with aesthetics, I am concerned with being able to get a good grip on the stock or on the ramrod. The guns that I use show wear on the finish and a few dings here and there. I don't abuse them, but I don't baby them either. I use them.
Thanks again
Dale H
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We used to smack the flat top of the short starter down onto a ball sitting on the patch at the muzzle to get it started.
With a spit patch, the spit would splash when the knob of the starter hit the top of the muzzle. That's how wet we make
a spit patch. There is such a thing as not enough spit, that's for sure. The spit has to soften the interior bore fouling to allow
easy seating of the ball on the powder as well as lubricate the patched ball's travel through the bore AND leave enough moisture
on the bore to keep the fouling fairly soft for the next loading.
I tried olive oil mixes and they did not do well for me, accuracy or fouling softening.
BW makes a good stiffener for bullet lubes. I would not use it in a patch lube.
Track's Mink Oil is one of the best lubes there is, for a hunting situation. I use water soluble oil/water, or WWWF + a tich of oil, or spit
for target shooting. They shoot more cleanly than an oil or grease, except in my .32. Track's Mink oil was amazing in that rifle. After the
first shot using 35gr. 3F, 10 ounce(.021") denim patch and either a .311" or .320" round ball, the loading was easier than the first all the
way to 55 shots. 2 fingers on the rod after the patched ball was seated down 5" into the bore with the short starter. I will note that the
starter was not necessary with such a small ball and mere pressure on a choked up rod would form the patch and ball into the muzzle. Same
with the .40 cal. rifle.
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I'm thinking some people will take the rendered tallow and boil it in water to further purify it. After boiling place in fridge and let the tallow which will have floated to the top solidify then you can easily lift it off the top .
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That's about the best way to get rid of the bits, Smylee.
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Pukka, just recently one of my Doctors was telling me that all animals such as beef, pork , sheep etc. produce sodium and it is present in the meat. Probably not enough to hurt any gun barrel in that people have been using tallow for many years.
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I render black bear fat for oil and grease.
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Daryl, I was definitely not using enough spit. Not sure I have enough moisture in my whole body to last twenty shots the way you described, but I will give in a shot come warmer weather.
In the meantime, I will experiment with the beef tallow that I have and see how that turns out.
Thanks for all the input, guys.
Dale H
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I don't have enough spit either so I use a balistol and water mix about the same viscosity as spit. One thing I have noticed is that with the fake spit lube, or even real spit lube, I get a substantial fraying of the patching, mostly pillow ticking, but also denim and canvass as well, with all my guns. Using the same load and patch material with TOW Mink oil i get virtually no fraying. I usually us a ball.005 under bore size, .023 thick patching. that measurement is with micrometer compressed to the point of ratcheting.
Robby
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I was that way about 16 years ago, now I seem to be fine developing spit. I don't know what changed, although quitting smoking might have had something to do with it.
Right now in the house, the Humidity has been running from 20% to 35% & still I have no trouble getting spit up.
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Deer Tallow would be the way to go. Easy to get and easy to render. Since I do not hunt predators it is the natural choice for me. Beef Tallow would be my second choice. You can also make some fine soap from Deer Tallow!
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When I used to mess with greasy stuff I also found it a was a mess.
I mixed tallow with mineral spirits. Maybe 4:1, not sure. I put my strips in the warm mixture then wrung them out and let the solvent evaporate off. The patches had enough lube to not catch fire. They were not messy. I do not recall the accuracy results. It was similar to the system where you use ballistol and water then let the strips dry.
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Thanks.
Something else to try. I have done the Ballistol and water thing, but, as Eric pointed out, the only HC liquid lube is spit.
When using tallow and mineral spirits as you suggest, did the strips become stiff after the spirits evaporated?
Dale H
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Not bad. It depends on how much tallow is in the mix. I do not think much is really needed. It is not like french frying patches in fat on the stove, much cleaner. Like the ballistol and water system, if you used no water the patches would be oily and messy. IF you used all water the opposite. I did the same thing with Jojoba oil. Jojoba oil saturated patches are a slippery mess. It helps to have less oil or tallow.
In the end I am back to Ballistol oil and water. I pour a little solution in the patches I need in the next hour and wring them out. I did find some water soluble machinist oil to try out.
For a hunting patch, my inclination would be to use ballistics or soluable oil about 4:1 with water and let them dry out. Other than curiosity I am not interested in HC lubes. I think they did the best they could with that they ad at hand. We have more and better choices today.
For trail walks I bought a fisherman's vintage aluminum flip top worm box that goes on your belt. I can still use my wet patches and avoid cleaning on trail walks.
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I just use one of the tins/containers I posted above with whatever lubed pre-cuts I'm using & I've never had to wipe the bore on a trail walk.
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I have over 2 gallons of good clear bear oil I cooked down from archery kills. It works great just by itself, but sometimes I mix the bear oil with deer tallow. I use various percentages depending on the temperature. Seems to work very well.
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I have no interest in being "historically correct" aside from the gun itself. I do and use what makes the gun shoot well.
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The true test for me regarding patch lube is will it still work after being loaded in a rifle for days. What works well on a trail walk or a line match will not necessarily perform in a hunting situation. For me, Mink oil and Bear oil have proved to work after being loaded for more than two weeks in a wide range of temperatures. All my target loads except for my Chunk gun loads are the same as what I use for hunting. I would never use any water-based lube for hunting, so I do not use them for target shooting.
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The small bores I use on the trail, the .36 and .50 are not my hunting rifles, so I use water based lubes in them and they love it.
The .69, which I also use on the trail with water based lubes, shoots identically with mink oil lubed patches, so no difference there.
Most guns will shoot differently (different POI and/or accuracy) with oil or grease than they do with a water based lube. Gotta shoot
both to find out, if you do this.
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Rendered raccoon oil/grease has been working very well for me. Almost liquid above 70. Very soft even in the single digits. I don't think a patch lubed with it would dry out in weeks, works great for hunting.
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That coon oil sounds very similar to the Marmot oil I used back in the mid to late 70's.
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I used straight olive oil for hunting patches. They worked pretty good and didn't contaminate the powder. They do scorch in the middle but don't burn through. For target work I use a Dawn/water mix. No swabbing between shots and when you're done the barrel is as clean as if you just fired one shot.