AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: rich pierce on February 10, 2025, 01:55:32 AM
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As a project I’m thinking of building a true parts gun or composite gun. Not a mismatched bunch of new parts. A lock from one existing old or contemporary gun, a barrel from the same or different contemporary or original gun, furniture from either. The challenge is it will have to be a smooth bore and the parts predate 1780 in style. It’s an exercise. The lock may need work. The barrel may need reaming. I’ll have to use the furniture, side plate, lock and barrel tang with holes already drilled.
Right now the only suitable used smoothbore barrel I have is a round 32” 12 gauge. It could be used to make a cavalry carbine such as those seen in Of Sorts For Provincials by Jim Mullins. But the examples he shows were made in Great Britain, not “parts guns” made here. A used long barrel suitable for an all-rounder or New England or Hudson Valley fowler would be preferable. Don’t see them laying around very often.
The idea behind it is to go through the same steps a colonial gunsmith would when making a fowling piece or all-rounder smoothbore from salvaged wrecked or worn out guns. I’ve got more ideas than years left! ;D
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Sounds like a great project looking forward to seeing your progress! Since you're looking for parts and not a "firearm" I would think your online sources might be expanded greatly.
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Sounds like a great project looking forward to seeing your progress! Since you're looking for parts and not a "firearm" I would think your online sources might be expanded greatly.
Thanks Dan, I think I’m going to scout auctions for real wrecks.
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That sounds fun! Part of what I absolutely love about building Flintlocks is doing the research and then finding the parts. I like the concept of your experiment to simulate how a Colonial gunsmith would build using old parts. Very cool idea!
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Rich great idea. I look forward to seeing it come to fruition.
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What a great idea/exercise. I hope you keep us posted.
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Great Plan!!!....I would wager that 90% of utilitarian pioneer/homesteaders built not only their guns that way, but just about everything they needed to survive. When at shows and events I am always looking for used items to repurpose. As the saying goes...."there is nothing new under the Sun".....b
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Rich,
This to be honest is how I like to work.
I bought a bunch of cripples out of England some years ago, and also a good few parts.
I can look see what barrels I have that may suit you.
One is a rough old beast, octagon to round in maybe 14 bore but seem to think it is about 52" long.
Its makers mark is Thomas Bannister, and he made guns for Hudson Bay in the late 17th century and up to about 1707 I think.
Bore is rough, but started fine boring it.
Another is a little 20 bore barrel, and seems watered. it's maybe 36"
Have a Thomas Peele barrel with a great heavy round breech I figure to use one day!
I will look see if I have any others.
One I know is octagonal and smooth about 40 inches .
Might have a pare old buttplate . T -guards, are a bit late for these early barrels. Oh! Have another that needs a lock and re-stocking. Stock was made out of two parts and someone in the dim and dusty chamfered one half to slip over the other in the fore-end!
Its a rough barrel but chimes like Big Ben.
I love these old magic parts and old guns much more than near perfect ones, but like you Rich, I have more ambition than time to get them fixed in!
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watching with interest
If you find an original Bobby Hoyt can add a liner to make safe if needed or rifled
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I’ve successfully re-bored several old musket and fowler barrels. I use an adjustable reamer with good success. I take it back to mirror bright with the concentric rings in the light. So, unless the pits go through and through, many smoothbore barrels can be salvaged. 20 thousandths of an inch increase in bore size takes s as bit of time, but much less work than re-cutting rifling in a rifle barrel that is really bad.
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Awesome project Rich
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Rich,
Your use of adjustable reamers for a rebore is interesting. I have a couple antique fowler barrels I would like to clean up and have been thinking about the best way to get the job done. I have adjustable reamers and have considered using one, but have been reluctant to give it a go. In my experience, adjustable reamers can be a challenge to use due to the possibility of chatter and locking up. I have found that a rigid setup with assured concentricity and very light cuts not under power is required. Not sure how one would go about doing that in a rebore. Could you explain how you get the job done?
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Rich,
Your use of adjustable reamers for a rebore is interesting. I have a couple antique fowler barrels I would like to clean up and have been thinking about the best way to get the job done. I have adjustable reamers and have considered using one, but have been reluctant to give it a go. In my experience, adjustable reamers can be a challenge to use due to the possibility of chatter and locking up. I have found that a rigid setup with assured concentricity and very light cuts not under power is required. Not sure how one would go about doing that in a rebore. Could you explain how you get the job done?
Ok here’s my primitive setup. I mount the barrel in a vise. I get a long piece of square tubing that fits the end of the reamer. Near the breech I set up a vertical board with a round hole in it aligned with the bore by sighting through the muzzle. The hole in the board just allows the square tubing to rotate freely. A friend lent me a cross handle to spin the square shaft but now I’ve got to improvise. For a cross handle to turn the square reamer and advance it I will make a wooden handle 10” long with a square hole in the middle. There will be brass or steel plates facing the square hole in the center of the handle for reinforcement. I’ll cob up a wing nut set screw to keep the handle where I want it along the square rod as I advance the reamer.
In practice I set the reamer to just pass the tightest spot in the bore. I use lots of cutting oil. I do not let the reamer exit the muzzle completely. Then I expand it by feel. The first 20 passes remove rust and slowly progress to where it’s cutting along most of the length. I swab the bore with an oily rag from time to time. So the reamer is spun by hand a half turn at a time and advanced very incrementally. I’d not use a drill or whatever. If I have to back it out, restart at a smaller diameter, I do.
The breech is the last to clean up and by then I’ll have a cup of frass. I can see why period gunsmiths cut the whole powder chamber off the breech end of the barrel, re-threaded it, and re-breeched it. It’s that much extra work, whether reaming a smoothbore barrel or re-cutting rifling.
All this could be done nicely with a dedicated drilling/reaming setup. I don’t have room or do this often enough to justify that.
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rich, are you for old original parts for the project, or new stuff?
I have a original 43" long barrel, smooth bore now, about 64 cal. It's about 1.160" at the breech and 1 inch or so at the muzzle. Has sights, underlugs and is now percussion.
Also I have an early flint lock, no internal bridle type, that needs a main spring, otherwise is all there.
John
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rich, are you for old original parts for the project, or new stuff?
I have a original 43" long barrel, smooth bore now, about 64 cal. It's about 1.160" at the breech and 1 inch or so at the muzzle. Has sights, underlugs and is now percussion.
Also I have an early flint lock, no internal bridle type, that needs a main spring, otherwise is all there.
John
John, old parts are preferred. Rehabilitation of old parts will hopefully be part of the project. I can make springs. Sometimes the first one works just fine! ;D
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Rich,
Looks like your going to have a true "battlefield pick up" parts gun... great project. Blow out your candles at night when working on this spies are everywhere. ;)
Kevin
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Thanks for the detailed explanation Rich. I might give that a try, but also considering making a dedicated single point cutter I can run under power or doing the job with a hone. Some research and thinking to do prior to giving it a go.
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Thanks for the detailed explanation Rich. I might give that a try, but also considering making a dedicated single point cutter I can run under power or doing the job with a hone. Some research and thinking to do prior to giving it a go.
Some use a hone to good effect. I worry about consistency of bore diameter.
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Have used a shop built hone in the past with good results, but always open to trying something new.
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Rich, are you pulling the reamer or pushing the reamer?
I was once told that one of the better-known long-time manufacturers pulled their reamers, and the person who made the comment said he thought it contributed to a particularly good surface.
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Hmmm, some parts,,,,
Oops, seems the Upload is broken...
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Rich, are you pulling the reamer or pushing the reamer?
I was once told that one of the better-known long-time manufacturers pulled their reamers, and the person who made the comment said he thought it contributed to a particularly good surface.
I’ve been pushing but will try pulling.
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Hmmm, some parts,,,,
Oops, seems the Upload is broken...
Pix not loading - usually the hosting site having a problem.
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Rich,
One thing to bear in mind when fine boring an old smoothbore barrel, is that a great many of them are not a true cylinder from end to end, but bored on the 'Friction and relief' principle.
This can mean either a bit wider bore at chamber end, Or, a bit tighter, then a cylinder section, then the last part, (maybe about 9 inches, depending on barrel length) will be relieved a bit towards the muzzle.
I have always spill bored rather than use a reamer, but it is likely a bit slower. Its how I think the barrels were finished prior to rifling at Williamsburg, and the way English best guns are still finished.
(Boring bit with one sharp side, a wood slipper, and plenty of newspaper strips and oil!)
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Rich,
One thing to bear in mind when fine boring an old smoothbore barrel, is that a great many of them are not a true cylinder from end to end, but bored on the 'Friction and relief' principle.
This can mean either a bit wider bore at chamber end, Or, a bit tighter, then a cylinder section, then the last part, (maybe about 9 inches, depending on barrel length) will be relieved a bit towards the muzzle.
I have always spill bored rather than use a reamer, but it is likely a bit slower. Its how I think the barrels were finished prior to rifling at Williamsburg, and the way English best guns are still finished.
(Boring bit with one sharp side, a wood slipper, and plenty of newspaper strips and oil!)
Hoping someday to use such a setup. I have a local friend who has an original rifling bench that can be adapted to reaming. Because I mainly shoot round ball, a consistent bore is of some help. There’s still the shooter issue. :o
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Rich,
One thing to bear in mind when fine boring an old smoothbore barrel, is that a great many of them are not a true cylinder from end to end, but bored on the 'Friction and relief' principle.
This can mean either a bit wider bore at chamber end, Or, a bit tighter, then a cylinder section, then the last part, (maybe about 9 inches, depending on barrel length) will be relieved a bit towards the muzzle.
I have always spill bored rather than use a reamer, but it is likely a bit slower. Its how I think the barrels were finished prior to rifling at Williamsburg, and the way English best guns are still finished.
(Boring bit with one sharp side, a wood slipper, and plenty of newspaper strips and oil!)
I'm familiar with the technique at CWF, but not with the terminology. Is your last sentence a definition of "spill bored"? If not, what does that word mean? Thanks in advance.
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Whetrock,
Its just the maybe only English term for fine boring with the single edge cutter wooden slipper and paper.
very smooth even surface can be had, as long as the cutter is sharp!
And don't stop half way through!...or change direction half way through a cut.
All best,
R.
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These are fun projects. I built my 11 yo son a rifle in 1980 using junk, reject, scrounged, and homemade parts. It turned out really nice. He still has it.
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Rich this is an interesting project you are undertaking. I have some thoughts.
IMHO, a colonial gunsmith would not have access to the universe of old gun parts that you have. I believe that he would have parts from guns that were maybe not repairable or from guns he would have taken in trade and possibly military guns that were sold off as obsolete. Maybe guns that were so trashed by the owners that he may have offered to buy as a trove of parts.
I think that a gunsmith predating 1780 putting together a gun from parts would probably be of mismatched parts. A French TG, an English BP, a Dutch or German lock maybe a French barrel, the only thing that woold be new would be the wood, and it would have been finished the way he would finish his new creations.
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Rich this is an interesting project you are undertaking. I have some thoughts.
IMHO, a colonial gunsmith would not have access to the universe of old gun parts that you have. I believe that he would have parts from guns that were maybe not repairable or from guns he would have taken in trade and possibly military guns that were sold off as obsolete. Maybe guns that were so trashed by the owners that he may have offered to buy as a trove of parts.
I think that a gunsmith predating 1780 putting together a gun from parts would probably be of mismatched parts. A French TG, an English BP, a Dutch or German lock maybe a French barrel, the only thing that woold be new would be the wood, and it would have been finished the way he would finish his new creations.
Agree 100%! I have a collection of original locks that are in various states of disrepair or have been converted to percussion. I’ve got an old guard from an early fowler that has been chopped. Almost no front or rear extension. A decent big smooth bore barrel is next. I’ve got one that has been “stretched” and is 46” long and 1 and 1/4” at the breech with a big wallowed out drum hole. I’m not sure I want to try to recondition this one. The barrel joint where is was extended worries me as something that would be troublesome.
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Not sure it's a true parts gun til you splice together two sideplates!
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKPJsmmN/Screen-Shot-2025-02-13-at-7-31-30-PM.png) (https://postimages.org/)
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Not sure it's a true parts gun til you splice together two sideplates!
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKPJsmmN/Screen-Shot-2025-02-13-at-7-31-30-PM.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Very cool!
Can you go here https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=83893.0
and give instructions in exquisite detail on how to host pix somewhere and get a hot link that can be pasted herd without modifications that will give us pictures?
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Not sure it's a true parts gun til you splice together two sideplates!
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKPJsmmN/Screen-Shot-2025-02-13-at-7-31-30-PM.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Very cool!
Can you go here https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=83893.0
and give instructions in exquisite detail on how to host pix somewhere and get a hot link that can be pasted herd without modifications that will give us pictures?
Done. I used the same site you did and had no issues. I hope it helps.
- Tom
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Very helpful. Thanks!
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Tom, is that side plate backwards? Just struck me as odd the solid section wasn't to the rear.
I don't know why, it just did. Na, guess not, wouldn't line up with the holes. Hurts my neck trying to twist my head around.
Looks GRRRRRREAAAAAAT!
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Tom, is that side plate backwards? Just struck me as odd the solid section wasn't to the rear.
I don't know why, it just did. Na, guess not, wouldn't line up with the holes. Hurts my neck trying to twist my head around.
Looks GRRRRRREAAAAAAT!
Yeah, pretty cool, right!? It was listed on an auction site as a "Dutch Fowler." Looks like a musket sideplate joined (very well) to a fancy sideplate. It would be interesting to know the story behind it.
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I like that side plate - kinda querky. But I don't see a joint. To my eye it was made that way.
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Some old parts that might be useful.
(https://i.ibb.co/gZ1fTjnt/3-Lock-Length-a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d49V2Whk)
(https://i.ibb.co/0RqzLJH7/5-Muzzle-a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nNrKykxG)
(https://i.ibb.co/wNpHQbXb/2-Lock-inside.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8DP3xRpR)
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PM sent, John!
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Here’s a big early original Dutch lock I’d use if I found a huge long barrel. The tumbler is a replacement and I’d make a thicker one. The mainspring hook is twice as wide as the tumbler toe is thick. So many possible directions!
(https://i.ibb.co/Q3Y7tGFv/IMG-3785.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4n4w3xZR)
(https://i.ibb.co/KcRg4v1n/IMG-3786.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q7zVSw50)
(https://i.ibb.co/tpL4BHcz/IMG-3787.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m5NGJRt0)
(https://i.ibb.co/93gn8KZs/IMG-3788.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x8LhC9FJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/gZt0hdYQ/IMG-3789.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TMPQd1yJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/Wvq7Rhqz/IMG-3790.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3mGVP3GF)
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Love that lock!
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I looked at this on my phone yesterday. I was hoping to see it better on my laptop. For some reason the image isn't coming up on this post.
From what I saw on my phone I have to agree with Wolfe. That is a great beast of a lock.
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That big ol' honker lock would be perfect!
John
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Now I’ve got 5 original barrels to consider for the parts gun. In my copious free time I’ll be unbreeching them and reaming the bores. The 2 best candidates for a build are a French trade gun barrel with a sighting rib, about 46” long and .615 bore, still in flint, and an apparently never used 40” round Dutch barrel in .700 bore. The French barrel would be good for a New England fowler build, and the Dutch barrel would work for a composite militia musket using the big lock shown above in this thread.
Question that may horrify some of you: would a colonial gunsmith making a newly stocked gun from a pile of scavenged parts draw file the old barrel, as well as reaming it and whatever else was needed to restore functionality?
Keep in mind that 20 years from now when I pass, nobody will want these old parts. They are not museum-worthy items and whole original beat up muskets with parts like this are going at auction for $800-$1200 today.
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Rich I have considered and have had opportunities to buy relic parts as you describe. I wondered exactly what you are pondering.
What keeps me from doing it is that the amount of work involved would actually be more than starting out with parts of a known quality.
It also brings me back to why I as a rule dislike ersatz aging of new guns. No one 200 years ago would make a gun to look like it was 200 years old.
The parts you have would have looked a lot better than they do now and I doubt a colonial gunsmith would do anything more than it was necessary to make a functioning gun.
As a member of Esoteric Eclectic Anachronisms, I hope you find this helpful.
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Hi Rich,
My vote, based only upon conjecture, is to draw file the old barrel as well as clean up other parts… within reason. “Pragmatic” is a good description of Yankee gunsmiths, but stocking old parts with no attempt at cleaning them up would go beyond that and into the realm of crude.That’s not to say it didn’t happen, though. Personally, I’d like to see deeper pits and scratches left, with the more superficial surface flaws filed out. Maybe give yourself a time limit so you clean it up as best you can without making it look brand new?
When you ream out the bores, would you mind sharing some photos of the process?
- Tom
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Hi Rich,
My vote, based only upon conjecture, is to draw file the old barrel as well as clean up other parts… within reason. “Pragmatic” is a good description of Yankee gunsmiths, but stocking old parts with no attempt at cleaning them up would go beyond that and into the realm of crude.That’s not to say it didn’t happen, though. Personally, I’d like to see deeper pits and scratches left, with the more superficial surface flaws filed out. Maybe give yourself a time limit so you clean it up as best you can without making it look brand new?
When you ream out the bores, would you mind sharing some photos of the process?
- Tom
Will do, Tom.
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This latest question reminds me of the thread some time ago that was about producing guns in "a workman like manor". Some of the members in that thread posted guns that they had made in less than a week, or up to about a weeks time. Most all of the guns were quite nice.
I think it really illustrates that gun makers in colonial times made guns for every day use and got them out of the shop quickly. I would imagine of course that if they got a commission for a "special" order gun for a dignitary, or gift, some more time would be required.
IMHO
So Rich I think I would do the steps needed to make a usable gun ins a reasonable amount of time. Good luck, can't wait to see what you do with the parts.
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Fun stuff. None of the barrels are loaded, on inspection. One has a bore that is quite good but it’s been percussed, so after determining if the bore is recoverable, I’ll need to restore it to flint. I have some wrought iron I could use the fashion a plug to thread into where the drum was. The Bess-like Dutch barrel 40” long and .700 bore is almost perfect and I still wonder how old it is.
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I am also very interested in the photos of the reaming process. This is a cool project.
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I’ve been working on another original flintlock which is likely a 1763 French musket lock. This original lock lacks all springs, a cock, a pan, and a frizzen. I bought a pan, frizzen spring, mainspring, and frizzen for a 1763. I had a French cock that will look more than good even if not appropriate. Again, the concept is I’m building composite gun(s) which involves restoring old parts to working condition then building a gun with original parts.
Tonight I fit the cock to the tumbler, which requires checking the indexing of the cock to the tumbler. With the cock shoulder at rest, the tumbler toe must be very close to the bottom of the plate, as is normal with the cock at rest. The cock must seat against the shoulder where the square section of the tumbler axle meets the round axle. Check! 20 minutes of filing.
Next I fit the pan to the lock plate. I really lucked out here. Like it was made for it. Thank you TRS! (and my secret consultant)! 20 minutes of filing.
Next I fit the frizzen toe between the plate and pan bridle. Here are the challenges: the pan lid of the frizzen must align with the inside edge of the bolster. The frizzen toe must be a close fit in the slot formed by the lock plate and pan frizzen bridle. The pan lid on the frizzen has to sit down nicely on the pan itself. Mostly there.
(https://i.ibb.co/2YHm69RQ/IMG-5210.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zHDj5MCY)
(https://i.ibb.co/5h9Pkd3D/IMG-5209.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r2tV3ghP)
(https://i.ibb.co/xS5R4nvC/IMG-5211.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tMCWd0fm)
(https://i.ibb.co/kgWxPcxy/IMG-5212.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ynbXxsXR)
(https://i.ibb.co/yFCVRLds/IMG-5213.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xqb3sVX5)
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I've read a lot on lock geometry including this post from Jim Chambers: (https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=6913.0;wap2)
From what I've read, Chambers stated "The line of the lower jaw should intersect the pan just forward of the pan center.". This angle is to get the maximum "scrap" of the flint from top to bottom of the frizzen. See the purple line in the photo below
(https://i.imgur.com/i58Fym6l.jpg)
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If necessary I can bend the neck on this one.
(https://i.ibb.co/RTXMQwRc/IMG-5215.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YB5KfsHh)