AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: HighUintas on May 31, 2025, 10:31:13 PM
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How many of you have gotten so frustrated with your first flintlock you wanted to saw it in half and buy a cheap TC Hawken cap gun?
I'm nearly at that point with mine.
Accuracy isn't the worst ever, but I can't stop flinching from the pan going off, lower charge weights don't shoot accurately, and it hurts quite a bit to shoot loads that do.
100yd. 58 cal. 130gr 2f
Last few shots circled were definite flinches.
(https://i.ibb.co/hJjpMMsM/PXL-20250517-204238023-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NdPw33x3)
I'm sort of in between selling it, putting a different barrel on it, or getting a cheap TC Hawken
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Back then horses off. Seems like a bit more powder than you need. You could be tearing patches. Sometimes less is more.
W
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130 grains is a lot of powder.
Take a .22 rifle with you to the range. Shoot it occasionally to work on your flinching. Keep shooting the .22 until you stop flinching. When you get back to the flintlock, work on your mental aspect.
Are you wearing shooting or safety glasses?
Fleener
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Back then horses off. Seems like a bit more powder than you need. You could be tearing patches. Sometimes less is more.
W
It's not tearing patches with schuetzen, which is what that target is. . I've picked up quite a few and they could be reused.
130gr swiss definitely blows patches. I only shot that load twice. The balls didn't hit the target and the patches were shredded. It felt a little hot ;)
It really doesn't seem to shoot as well until I get pretty up there in charge weight. Otherwise, I'd just use 70-90gr. That load feels good, but just isn't as accurate.
Even with the flinching, I can give the accuracy between the two just from the large number of shots I've tried.
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130 grains is a lot of powder.
Take a .22 rifle with you to the range. Shoot it occasionally to work on your flinching. Keep shooting the .22 until you stop flinching. When you get back to the flintlock, work on your mental aspect.
Are you wearing shooting or safety glasses?
Fleener
Yes I always wear safety glasses. I don't want to gamble with my eyesight.
I know with certainty I don't flinch with a center-fire rifle. I can shoot them extremely well at long range and have verified it with dummy rounds. It is the pan going off that makes me flinch. I only use the minimum needed priming charge too.
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130 is in the middle of 3 slow twist .58's I had long time back. One needed 140gr.(Bill Large barrel) and the other 2 were production guns with 56" and 72".
With these loads, they shot between 1" and 2" at 100yds.
I have trouble flinching, even with my .32. I have the think through each shot as I make it and try to "see" the ball into the paper. If I don't, I flinch.
I flinch less with my big gun, but it's a caper in .69 cal. Percussion seems to help. I shoot
22's and many different air rifles with no flinch. Those do dot help with my flintlock flinch. Mine all have terrifically fast ignition, yet flinch I do. Maybe I've been sprayed on the trail too many times?
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130 is in the middle of 3 slow twist .58's I had long time back. One needed 140gr.(Bill Large barrel) and the other 2 were production guns with 56" and 72".
With these loads, they shot between 1" and 2" at 100yds.
I have trouble flinching, even with my .32. I have the think through each shot as I make it and try to "see" the ball into the paper. If I don't, I flinch.
I flinch less with my big gun, but it's a caper in .69 cal. Percussion seems to help. I shoot
22's and many different air rifles with no flinch. Those do dot help with my flintlock flinch. Mine all have terrifically fast ignition, yet flinch I do. Maybe I've been sprayed on the trail too many times?
Mine is a '66 twist. It's also a deep round groove and even though I use 12oz Joann's denim, I still get hard fouling build up lower in the bore whether I use mink lube, spit, or hoppes and it loads pretty hard after a couple shots.
The flinch combined with the barrel has me wanting to get a different barrel and convert it to percussion. At least I got that rust problem solved though!
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The deep grooves I've never liked. About all I could suggest, is perhaps using a .570" ball and going to 14 ounce. The 12 ounce isn't thick enough.
I got great accuracy in my .69, even with a .675" ball (pure lead) or the hardened lead .677" ball (same mould) when using 14 ounce denim. No wiping. That should be a similar situation of fit, due to the smaller ball size even though my rifling is only 12 thou. deep.
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The deep grooves I've never liked. About all I could suggest, is perhaps using a .570" ball and going to 14 ounce. The 12 ounce isn't thick enough.
I got great accuracy in my .69, even with a .675" ball (pure lead) or the hardened lead .677" ball (same mould) when using 14 ounce denim. No wiping. That should be a similar situation of fit, due to the smaller ball size even though my rifling is only 12 thou. deep.
My 12oz measures 0.022-0.023 when compressed with the caliper jaws like you do yours. And I use a 0.570 ball. The math says it should seal the grooves. But when I've pulled balls they don't have discernable patch imprints where the grooves are, so maybe the grooves are actually deeper than 0.016. I'm not able to see any blow by on the patches though, I don't think.
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Get real close to a target butt, about 6 feet, with a very safe backdrop.....Load your gun with a light charge and shoulder it. Get on target, then close your eyes, stay as steady as you can and pull the trigger....Do this until the urge to flinch passes.You are not shooting for accuracy here, but rather feel and follow through....The same principle applies to archey to solve the issue of snap shooting and target panic. Give it a try, it will help.
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Did you say this is your first flintlock? If it is, experiment with smaller flash pan charges to see if a less obvious flash will set the rifle off, and perhaps, reduce the urge to flinch. A just-right small flash pan charge will set the main charge off quicker, too.
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Get real close to a target butt, about 6 feet, with a very safe backdrop.....Load your gun with a light charge and shoulder it. Get on target, then close your eyes, stay as steady as you can and pull the trigger....Do this until the urge to flinch passes.You are not shooting for accuracy here, but rather feel and follow through....The same principle applies to archey to solve the issue of snap shooting and target panic. Give it a try, it will help.
I had thought of doing that! I've had target panic with archery in the past trying to "time" the release with the wobble. The blind shooting works well. Or, at least shooting at a blank target where there's not really anything to aim at.
I will try this out next time I'm at a place I can do it
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Did you say this is your first flintlock? If it is, experiment with smaller flash pan charges to see if a less obvious flash will set the rifle off, and perhaps, reduce the urge to flinch. A just-right small flash pan charge will set the main charge off quicker, too.
Yes. I used to put too much in there but have it at about minimum now.
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Although you don't see patch imprint on the lead where the grooves go, you likely get enough obturation (sp?) of the ball upon ignition to seal your bore, and thus have no blow by. This is good. But your patch isn't carrying enough lube to dissolve the fowling from the previous shot, all the way to the charge. So you are getting fowling build up at the breech. Or you aren't using enough lube! I shoot a .60 cal flint rifle with a 42" bbl using 86 gr. FFg GOEX and a .590" pure lead ball with .020" patching, and I never have to clean during a day's shooting. Even so, when I'm on the line target shooting, and there is a break in the shooting, to change targets for example, I always load my rifle right away, then wrack it. If I wait until the line is clear for then next relay, IO will have trouble getting that first ball down the bore over dried out fowling. My patches are soaked but not dripping...I prelube my precut patches and store them in a tin with a hinged lid. I'm sure you can get good accuracy with between 80 and 90 grains of FFg GOEX...I sure can. I recently returned home from an annual rendezvous where all the shooting was at paper. The rifle match was 25, 50, 75, and 100 yards, all offhand. I placed first with my old Chambers' (Mark Silver) Virginia rifle described above.
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Did you say this is your first flintlock? If it is, experiment with smaller flash pan charges to see if a less obvious flash will set the rifle off, and perhaps, reduce the urge to flinch. A just-right small flash pan charge will set the main charge off quicker, too.
Yes. I used to put too much in there but have it at about minimum now.
If your touch hole is in the proper position, that is "sunset" or slightly higher you should never have to under charge your pan to get fast ignition. You should never have to "bank" your powder either. Such things are done to offset improper touch hole liner installation. You don't want to overload the pan. Just enough powder to be almost flush with the top of the pan as the frizzen bottom is slightly raised to seal the pan charge ..... These flintlocks we shoot are "primitive" weapons, yet function flawlessly with just a little attention to detail.
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You might try 'dry firing' with a wood flint at a target on your wall to get used to the hammer fall and frizzen flip. Try it with both eyes open so you can see where your sights are pointed when you pull the trigger and when the frizzen flips open. Ignition with a flintlock takes longer than with a cap lock so you need to hold a little longer when you fire. You might also try counting to 1001 when you pull the trigger while trying to hold on the target. Follow through is critical with flintlocks. Also have you tried a wad under your patch to see what that might do for accuracy. The comment on a wet patch may help with fouling. The other item that might be affecting you is trigger pull weight. Trying to snatch a good shot does not work well for me.
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Although you don't see patch imprint on the lead where the grooves go, you likely get enough obturation (sp?) of the ball upon ignition to seal your bore, and thus have no blow by. This is good. But your patch isn't carrying enough lube to dissolve the fowling from the previous shot, all the way to the charge. So you are getting fowling build up at the breech. Or you aren't using enough lube! I shoot a .60 cal flint rifle with a 42" bbl using 86 gr. FFg GOEX and a .590" pure lead ball with .020" patching, and I never have to clean during a day's shooting. Even so, when I'm on the line target shooting, and there is a break in the shooting, to change targets for example, I always load my rifle right away, then wrack it. If I wait until the line is clear for then next relay, IO will have trouble getting that first ball down the bore over dried out fowling. My patches are soaked but not dripping...I prelube my precut patches and store them in a tin with a hinged lid. I'm sure you can get good accuracy with between 80 and 90 grains of FFg GOEX...I sure can. I recently returned home from an annual rendezvous where all the shooting was at paper. The rifle match was 25, 50, 75, and 100 yards, all offhand. I placed first with my old Chambers' (Mark Silver) Virginia rifle described above.
I'm not sure I could get any more lube into the patch. I pre-cut all my 12 oz denim patches and and soak them and melted mink oil, and squeeze out the excess so that they're not dripping. There is a whole lot of extra lube in those patches. When I use spit or Hoppes cleaner to lube, they are completely soaked and nearly dripping. But,.maybe I wait too long to load another ball. It is very dry here.
I'll try loading immediately after next time. I usually dawdle a bit between shots
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Did you say this is your first flintlock? If it is, experiment with smaller flash pan charges to see if a less obvious flash will set the rifle off, and perhaps, reduce the urge to flinch. A just-right small flash pan charge will set the main charge off quicker, too.
Yes. I used to put too much in there but have it at about minimum now.
If your touch hole is in the proper position, that is "sunset" or slightly higher you should never have to under charge your pan to get fast ignition. You should never have to "bank" your powder either. Such things are done to offset improper touch hole liner installation. You don't want to overload the pan. Just enough powder to be almost flush with the top of the pan as the frizzen bottom is slightly raised to seal the pan charge ..... These flintlocks we shoot are "primitive" weapons, yet function flawlessly with just a little attention to detail.
It's a hair below sunset. It's in a good spot. I only minimize the primer charge to reduce flash and flinch
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You might try 'dry firing' with a wood flint at a target on your wall to get used to the hammer fall and frizzen flip. Try it with both eyes open so you can see where your sights are pointed when you pull the trigger and when the frizzen flips open. Ignition with a flintlock takes longer than with a cap lock so you need to hold a little longer when you fire. You might also try counting to 1001 when you pull the trigger while trying to hold on the target. Follow through is critical with flintlocks. Also have you tried a wad under your patch to see what that might do for accuracy. The comment on a wet patch may help with fouling. The other item that might be affecting you is trigger pull weight. Trying to snatch a good shot does not work well for me.
Trigger weight is good. I think I measured it around 3.5lbs.
I haven't tried an over powder wad, but I've been thinking I might try it. Or, at least try a lubed over powder patch. I've seen that give good results for others just like a wad.
I do sometimes dry fire with a wood flint and am able to hold steady through that. I think the difference is the flash and hiss of the pan with a real shot. But I'll try doing it every night this week or maybe just doing some charged pan dry fires, even though flints are getting scarce.
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I am thinking of getting a replacement barrel from rice in square groove. That would at least alleviate my bore frustrations
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Not to beat a dead horse about powder, I'd like to provide an example. I've been shooting and building guns for over 50 years. I use 65gr FFG, in my .50 cal. .490 round ball w/.010 oiled patch. 42' barrel. I can hit a dinner plate at 125 yards 8 out of 10 times off-hand. Not bragging, just saying. 3 years ago, I shot a deer face-on in the chest, in a snowstorm, the day after Christmas at that range. The ball entered about 3" to the left of center, curved at an up angle, bounced off the spine mid body and angled back downwards, exiting the right buttox and breaking the femur on the way out.
Again, not bragging, just trying to give you a picture of the power of 65gr FFG powder has. A black powder gun is just that. It's not a 30-06 and never will be, no matter how much powder you put in it. I would suggest not trying to correct your dope by powder charge, but by adjusting the sights.
If you need assistance with how to sight in your gun and work up a proper load, many members will be more than happy to help. Myself included.
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Not to beat a dead horse about powder, I'd like to provide an example. I've been shooting and building guns for over 50 years. I use 65gr FFG, in my .50 cal. .490 round ball w/.010 oiled patch. 42' barrel. I can hit a dinner plate at 125 yards 8 out of 10 times off-hand. Not bragging, just saying. 3 years ago, I shot a deer face-on in the chest, in a snowstorm, the day after Christmas at that range. The ball entered about 3" to the left of center, curved at an up angle, bounced off the spine mid body and angled back downwards, exiting the right buttox and breaking the femur on the way out.
Again, not bragging, just trying to give you a picture of the power of 65gr FFG powder has. A black powder gun is just that. It's not a 30-06 and never will be, no matter how much powder you put in it. I would suggest not trying to correct your dope by powder charge, but by adjusting the sights.
If you need assistance with how to sight in your gun and work up a proper load, many members will be more than happy to help. Myself included.
I am glad that you are able to shoot well and have an accurate load at 65gr in your 50. If you lived nearby, I'd invite you to come assist me in accomplishing the same.
I don't believe I mentioned anything about my charge weight being related to the trajectory of the ball. I do not wish to shoot 130gr out of this gun. It hurts.
Besides that, what is your ball speed? 1650-1700? Last time I measured, mine was around 1650. So, similar.
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I built a Jaeger with a Rice .58 caliber Edward Marshal profile barrel. It is square bottom rifling. The rifle weighs in at a little over 9 pounds.
I had trouble at first with the patching. and the ball combination. I started with Jo Ann's $0 drill and .570 ball with 85 grains Goex 2f. Patching didn't hold up. Tried different patching 10 and 12 oz denim. I switched to a .562 ball and things began to improve. All of my patches during experimenting were bear oil lubed.
I found some tightly woven canvas that is .022 thick. My trouble with the patching is gone.
By the way I have a plinking load of 70 grains of Goex 2f that is very accurate. Also, a Hunting load of 110 grains of the same.
I have to commend you on not having more flinches on your target. Shooting 130 grains of powder off the bench will definitely make you flinch.
I had a round rifling Rice barrel in .50 that game me a lot of trouble with patching and fowling. I did figure it out, but it was a lot of powder and lead to do so.
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When sighting in rifles with stout loads, I make use of a " PAST" recoil pad, which does wonders in eliminating the hurt. Sometimes I'll even use my shooting jacket for it's elbow protection. Having said that, many of the loads I use for hunting are in the 100 to 140 gr range [ 20 and 10 bore fowlers] and the stock design of my guns is very recoil friendly . I don't even really see the "flash" because I concentrate on sight picture. I'm saying this, because I'm wondering about the stock design of your rifle. Is it a known design or a custom build ? Buttplate style ? Full stock ?
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Where are you located in the "High Uinta's"?
Maybe able to help if close enough, I am in Uinta county, UT.
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1st shoot from a bench supported till you can see the patch fly down range (you are no longer looking at the pan flash) front sight locked on target
2nd drop your powder charge 80 should be easier on you till you get use to the flintlock/flinchlock
3rd it doesn't matter how much powder you use if you can't hit the target
4th work up the best grouping load and use that to hunt with(see 3rd) a 58cal hole in is better than a 58 cal miss
if all else fails have someone else "load" the rifle sometimes with pan only blanks, and sometime No powder in the pan to see if you still flinch
at home put a quarter on the barrel flat at the front sight (with a wood flint) practice squeezing the trigger without the flinch(dry fire) till the quarter stays put
get into a habit of the same sequence ,load, mount , sights on target, deep Breathing in and out hold half out and slow trigger squeeze ,surprised release of the cock, fallow though eyes locked on front sight locked on target till you hear the ball hit target
remember you don't have to shoot if it doesn't FEEL right start you sequence over till it does
don't rush the shot
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Very good advice recurve! 👌👍👍
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I honed my flintlock shooting skills in the 80s shooting lots of offhand competitions. What I had to do was tell myself don't move the gun off target until the recoil moves it off target. So it doesn't matter to me what's happening to my right, flashes in the pan, or anything. I hold until the gun recoils me off the target.
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I honed my flintlock shooting skills in the 80s shooting lots of offhand competitions. What I had to do was tell myself don't move the gun off target until the recoil moves it off target. So it doesn't matter to me what's happening to my right, flashes in the pan, or anything. I hold until the gun recoils me off the target.
Bingo
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You might try 'dry firing' with a wood flint at a target on your wall to get used to the hammer fall and frizzen flip. Try it with both eyes open so you can see where your sights are pointed when you pull the trigger and when the frizzen flips open. Ignition with a flintlock takes longer than with a cap lock so you need to hold a little longer when you fire. You might also try counting to 1001 when you pull the trigger while trying to hold on the target. Follow through is critical with flintlocks.
This is classic dry fire practice, and probably the best way to practice any long gun shooting. The key to dry fire practice is holding the rifle steady, with the sights properly aligned, on target, as the shot breaks, and during follow through to a slow count of 2 or 3. Once you are able to hold on target, consistently, during follow through, begin using a flint and only prime the pan to get better use to the flash in the pan. Live fire practice is merely confirmation of diligent dry fire work.
J.D.
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My Sons and I have several 58 and 62 cal rifles. Use 75 to 80 Gr 2F in all of them.
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If you are paying attention to the flash in the pan you are anticipating the shot which doesn't work shooting flintlocks.
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get a led sled and put some weight on it. The recoil will hardly be noticeable. I shoot 120gr of 2f Old Eynsford in my 58 with a .565 ball and .020 patch for hunting. It shoots great with 75 gr 3f and .575 ball for plinking.
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My opinion is you should forget for now replacing the barrel or other accuracy enhancing techniques. As long as you have that flinch you will never shoot your best or even know what your rifle is capable of doing. You should make every effort to permanently erase the flinch from your shooting.
In the meantime I do advise you reduce that powder charge to something more comfortable.
I have a method of conquering that flinch that works for most people. However for it to work requires self discipline and the ability to follow directions without jumping ahead.
I can send you a copy if you like.
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This discussion has some of the best shooting advice I’ve ever seen all in one place.
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To get past the flinch, stop shooting from a bench until you lick the problem. Perceived recoil is more from the bench than when shooting off hand. Don't think of the lock when you shoot, concentrate on the sights. I teach people by telling them to think and count to their self, "squeeze, 2,3,4", before lowering the rifle. By concentrating on the sights, the flash is much less notable, and helps with overall follow through and accuracy. The more you shoot, the less you see the pan flash. I'm not aware of it at all anymore.
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Probably all good suggestions but honestly....
A 58, 100 yards and 130 gr powder. So how big was that target? Maybe your expectations are for perfect zero's. Maybe the best suggestion is less powder and also try 50 yards or even 25 and then work your way out. As to the flinch, a local hero Army guy says the best solution is to repeat a few words of caution to yourself as you get ready to pull the trigger. Some practice that by mentally repeating "there will be a flash" three or four times in advance of firing.
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I built a Jaeger with a Rice .58 caliber Edward Marshal profile barrel. It is square bottom rifling. The rifle weighs in at a little over 9 pounds.
I had trouble at first with the patching. and the ball combination. I started with Jo Ann's $0 drill and .570 ball with 85 grains Goex 2f. Patching didn't hold up. Tried different patching 10 and 12 oz denim. I switched to a .562 ball and things began to improve. All of my patches during experimenting were bear oil lubed.
I found some tightly woven canvas that is .022 thick. My trouble with the patching is gone.
By the way I have a plinking load of 70 grains of Goex 2f that is very accurate. Also, a Hunting load of 110 grains of the same.
I have to commend you on not having more flinches on your target. Shooting 130 grains of powder off the bench will definitely make you flinch.
I had a round rifling Rice barrel in .50 that game me a lot of trouble with patching and fowling. I did figure it out, but it was a lot of powder and lead to do so.
I was thinking of getting a Lee 0.562 mold to try. That would at least make it easier to load and should still fill the grooves as much.
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When sighting in rifles with stout loads, I make use of a " PAST" recoil pad, which does wonders in eliminating the hurt. Sometimes I'll even use my shooting jacket for it's elbow protection. Having said that, many of the loads I use for hunting are in the 100 to 140 gr range [ 20 and 10 bore fowlers] and the stock design of my guns is very recoil friendly . I don't even really see the "flash" because I concentrate on sight picture. I'm saying this, because I'm wondering about the stock design of your rifle. Is it a known design or a custom build ? Buttplate style ? Full stock ?
I taped on n a makeshift pad yesterday and it helped a lot. It is not a recoil friendly design. Early style Hawken plate from track.
(https://i.ibb.co/zhK5NKdp/IMG-20230715-110814741.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VWXN3X6R)
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Where are you located in the "High Uinta's"?
Maybe able to help if close enough, I am in Uinta county, UT.
I'm in Sandy. That would be great. I don't know anyone that shoots BP, so I'm left to the Internet and myself to figure it out.
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1st shoot from a bench supported till you can see the patch fly down range (you are no longer looking at the pan flash) front sight locked on target
2nd drop your powder charge 80 should be easier on you till you get use to the flintlock/flinchlock
3rd it doesn't matter how much powder you use if you can't hit the target
4th work up the best grouping load and use that to hunt with(see 3rd) a 58cal hole in is better than a 58 cal miss
if all else fails have someone else "load" the rifle sometimes with pan only blanks, and sometime No powder in the pan to see if you still flinch
at home put a quarter on the barrel flat at the front sight (with a wood flint) practice squeezing the trigger without the flinch(dry fire) till the quarter stays put
get into a habit of the same sequence ,load, mount , sights on target, deep Breathing in and out hold half out and slow trigger squeeze ,surprised release of the cock, fallow though eyes locked on front sight locked on target till you hear the ball hit target
remember you don't have to shoot if it doesn't FEEL right start you sequence over till it does
don't rush the shot
Thanks. These are great advice. That is true that it doesn't matter if the load is more accurate if I can't hit anything!
I did go to the range yesterday just to shoot a lower load and focus on the flinch, I'll post a follow up shortly.
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My opinion is you should forget for now replacing the barrel or other accuracy enhancing techniques. As long as you have that flinch you will never shoot your best or even know what your rifle is capable of doing. You should make every effort to permanently erase the flinch from your shooting.
In the meantime I do advise you reduce that powder charge to something more comfortable.
I have a method of conquering that flinch that works for most people. However for it to work requires self discipline and the ability to follow directions without jumping ahead.
I can send you a copy if you like.
I would absolutely like to try that. Thank you. I did go back to the range and shoot a lower charge focusing only on flinch. I'll post that shortly
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To get past the flinch, stop shooting from a bench until you lick the problem. Perceived recoil is more from the bench than when shooting off hand. Don't think of the lock when you shoot, concentrate on the sights. I teach people by telling them to think and count to their self, "squeeze, 2,3,4", before lowering the rifle. By concentrating on the sights, the flash is much less notable, and helps with overall follow through and accuracy. The more you shoot, the less you see the pan flash. I'm not aware of it at all anymore.
Yes I'd planned on getting out to practice in the woods shooting steel or stumps, etc to get off the bench and focus on something other than thinking about not flinching. I think trying not to sometimes makes it worse
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Probably all good suggestions but honestly....
A 58, 100 yards and 130 gr powder. So how big was that target? Maybe your expectations are for perfect zero's. Maybe the best suggestion is less powder and also try 50 yards or even 25 and then work your way out. As to the flinch, a local hero Army guy says the best solution is to repeat a few words of caution to yourself as you get ready to pull the trigger. Some practice that by mentally repeating "there will be a flash" three or four times in advance of firing.
I think that target is about 12" circle, so the better portion of that group may be about 8-9 inches?
The goal is to have a very repeatable 3" or better group at 100 and hopefully be able to put a ball in an 8" circle at all time at 125-150 yards. I know 150 is stretching it, but it I can hit that size target at 150 every time, then I'd be comfortable taking the shot.
It is for an elk hunt. Probably a once in a lifetime tag and the shot opportunities in the area nearly all > 100 yards due to terrain, from what I am told by guys who have hunted it before. I I want to be 100% confident at 100-125
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Thanks for all the suggestions. I really appreciate it.
I went back to the range yesterday with the plan to shoot a lower load and focus only on flinch.
Well, I had unexpected results.
100 yards, 80gr 2f schuetzen, 12oz patch w mink oil.
There were 10 shots. 1 sighter to get on target (not shown) and 1 big flinch way out. So there's 8 shots in that 3-4" group. That is the best I've done and was very surprised. I have tried that load before but not with those results. So did I get lucky or was I unknowingly flinching when I tried it before? I don't know. I hope that this load repeats itself.
(https://i.ibb.co/99NDW4XM/PXL-20250601-192005307.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BVtpB6D1)
I also tried 80gr swiss 2f but only had a few shots of that and a couple flinches so I didn't take a picture.
What I focused on while shooting was trying to focus on keeping my back straight and down in the gun. Not moving my shoulders until seconds after the shot. It's likely my hands would still fling a bit, but I could tell that it was better and not essentially having a seizure behind the gun.
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Have you ever used a P.A.S.T recoil pad? They work well for me when shooting from the bench with 410 gr round balls and 120 gr of Swiss.
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Have you ever used a P.A.S.T recoil pad? They work well for me when shooting from the bench with 410 gr round balls and 120 gr of Swiss.
Yikes, that sounds like a hefty load. I haven't tried one of those but thought I'd look at getting one after recommendations here.
I forgot to mention that I taped a makeshift foam buttoad on yesterday and it helped.
One problem with this early Hawken butt plate is that there's absolutely no heel extension to keep the plate higher on my arm/shoulder, so it wants to slip down a little and the corner of it gets me right in the joint. If it stayed higher I think it would be more comfortable.
(https://i.ibb.co/NnWJPksS/PXL-20250602-145839095.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qFmcf4d5)
(https://i.ibb.co/mVzLffB1/PXL-20250602-145924242-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KpyMTTGR)
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well, that style stock does not help with 'felt' recoil. I bet it seems to smack your cheek a bit.
Don't know how heavy that gun is, but if you can use a shooting stick while standing the felt recoil would seem a lot less. Even just sitting (if you still can - I cant) will make for less perceived recoil. Or try kneeling with the rifle on a solid rest. All of these could be postions you might have to use in the field.
And that last group is definitely nothing to be ashamed of, except for the 'flyers' you mentioned. Working around that load might tighten it up a bit, but more importantly you'll get more practice with a load that doesn't make your eyes cross with a flinch. no need for 'moose-kicker' loads when punching paper.
practice is your chance to accept the fact that there will be recoil. Nothing you can do will stop the recoil. you can only lessen the recoil with padding or shooting position. Anything you do before the shot to anticipate the recoil, will only spoil the shot.
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I use to have to hunt and sight in with slugs 1 1/4 oz , rifled shotgun (a real thumper)
so I don't feel the recoil from muzzleloaders
and I had to qualify with an 870 remington 00 buck law enforcement officer (and other weapons) and U.S. Army Military Police. 4 yrs carrying an M60 than 16 with m203 as a fire team leader.
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Take cardboard and ducktape and make a temporary cardboard wall to block you ftom seeing the hammer fall or frizzen flash from distracting you.
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A flintlock is hard to shoot, I don't care who you are. Between the clack of the flint on the frizzen then the pan flashing and the length of time it takes for the ball to leave a feller can do a lot of squirrel stuff and not hit what he wanted to. It can be learned though. Shooting with a buddy that may or may not load the rifle or charge the pan is great practice. For me, I get super serious about the front sight and what I am looking for is exactly where the front sight was when I lost sight of the target. Then you know where the impact will be, when hunting that is important information and no way to tell other than where the front sight was at the shot because of the smoke. When I do that front sight hard focus and follow through I shoot really well. By really well I mean I get reasonable groups at 100 for open sight cartridge rifles but when I don't have that focus my groups open up a LOT.
That early Hawken butt just sucks to shoot, I did a heat and beat on mine to take some of that toe out, and I ran a little shorter length of pull so I can bring it into the pocket in the meat and off the bones.
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I get a nice red ROSE about 3," inboard of your spot, using 165gr. 2F and 482gr. round ball. I find that 10 shots of this load in a row will do it. This rifle has a 2" wide English butt plate on a 9 1/2# rifle.
200gr. Create a "rose" much more quickly.
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HSsmith is right. This relates to what I was going to give as my advice. Keep shooting it, you'll get better. It took me a while to get any good groups with my first flintlock, I just had to keep trying to "follow through" which really means hold your sight picture longer.
Flintlock was the hardest shooting thing I've ever done. I'm an Expert (military) or AAA (BPCR and .22 silhouette) shot with rifles and pretty good with pistols too. Usually the best shot at the range, shooting open sights at double or triple the range of everyone else shooting scoped rifles. But flintlocks were like going back to square one, which for me was learning to shoot at 9 years old. Shot BP all my life, but percussion. It's a world of difference trying to hold those 500 miliseconds of a flintlock compared to .05 mS for every other type of gun. After a couple years, I'm getting pretty good at it, and have come in 3rd at a couple local black powder matches - shooting against some that have shoot flintlocks for decades. Your natural ability will come out, IF you can stop that flinch. A hard kicking gun and load is not the way to do that.
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I use to have to hunt and sight in with slugs 1 1/4 oz , rifled shotgun (a real thumper)
so I don't feel the recoil from muzzleloaders
and I had to qualify with an 870 remington 00 buck law enforcement officer (and other weapons) and U.S. Army Military Police. 4 yrs carrying an M60 than 16 with m203 as a fire team leader.
Me too. I grew up with a slug gun hunting deer in Illinois. 8th grade I got my very own Remington 1100 and I shot 1.25oz slugs through it. Man that sucker kicked. I could shoot 2" groups at 100 easily with it though, probably because I shot it 5 times a year and my 22 several hundred haha
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Take cardboard and ducktape and make a temporary cardboard wall to block you ftom seeing the hammer fall or frizzen flash from distracting you.
Great idea. Thanks!
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A flintlock is hard to shoot, I don't care who you are. Between the clack of the flint on the frizzen then the pan flashing and the length of time it takes for the ball to leave a feller can do a lot of squirrel stuff and not hit what he wanted to. It can be learned though. Shooting with a buddy that may or may not load the rifle or charge the pan is great practice. For me, I get super serious about the front sight and what I am looking for is exactly where the front sight was when I lost sight of the target. Then you know where the impact will be, when hunting that is important information and no way to tell other than where the front sight was at the shot because of the smoke. When I do that front sight hard focus and follow through I shoot really well. By really well I mean I get reasonable groups at 100 for open sight cartridge rifles but when I don't have that focus my groups open up a LOT.
That early Hawken butt just sucks to shoot, I did a heat and beat on mine to take some of that toe out, and I ran a little shorter length of pull so I can bring it into the pocket in the meat and off the bones.
HSsmith is right. This relates to what I was going to give as my advice. Keep shooting it, you'll get better. It took me a while to get any good groups with my first flintlock, I just had to keep trying to "follow through" which really means hold your sight picture longer.
Flintlock was the hardest shooting thing I've ever done. I'm an Expert (military) or AAA (BPCR and .22 silhouette) shot with rifles and pretty good with pistols too. Usually the best shot at the range, shooting open sights at double or triple the range of everyone else shooting scoped rifles. But flintlocks were like going back to square one, which for me was learning to shoot at 9 years old. Shot BP all my life, but percussion. It's a world of difference trying to hold those 500 miliseconds of a flintlock compared to .05 mS for every other type of gun. After a couple years, I'm getting pretty good at it, and have come in 3rd at a couple local black powder matches - shooting against some that have shoot flintlocks for decades. Your natural ability will come out, IF you can stop that flinch. A hard kicking gun and load is not the way to do that.
I agree with both. I found in the last year how much easier it is to accurately shoot a lower recoil center-fire rifle solely due to being able to better manage the movement of the gun. A 243 vs a 30-06 is much easier to shoot well, even without flinching.
So with a flintlock, even if I don't flinch with a 130 grain load, that is going to be much harder to shoot accurately than an 80 grain load. That couple shots of 130gr 2f swiss really did cross my eyes.
I'll keep at it with 80gr and my makeshift butt pad and hopefully will be able to get a bit better with practice. Hopefully that 80gr continues to shoot well. It really seemed like the stars aligned with those shots.
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The groups at 100 yds honestly don't look bad to me. You are not shooting a target gun and sights are harder to see as you age. But loading technique also makes a difference in each shot if you vary the ramrod pressure, and maybe other things. None of my blackpowder rifles, percussion or flintlock, shoot as accurately as a .22 or modern cartridge guns....yet.
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The groups at 100 yds honestly don't look bad to me. You are not shooting a target gun and sights are harder to see as you age. But loading technique also makes a difference in each shot if you vary the ramrod pressure, and maybe other things. None of my blackpowder rifles, percussion or flintlock, shoot as accurately as a .22 or modern cartridge guns....yet.
Sights and eyes.... Well, I'm 38 with 20/15 vision and I just put a peep and globe sight on. Here is a picture of them. These sights are only a temporary thing for this year. I'll be putting the buckhorn and blade sights back on this winter. I might even take them off and put my primitive sights back on if I get feeling confident and proficient enough with these. I just wanted to remove as much error as possible in figuring it out and using this for my hunt.
(https://i.ibb.co/DfJjsLhq/PXL-20250603-043719133.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CKcSNWgr)
(https://i.ibb.co/C5WftbRv/PXL-20250603-043651587.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Z6N0JBqK)
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Those 100yd groups would be more than adequate to take down any whitetail you pointed it at.
If the purpose of the rifle is for deer hunting, I'd say you're good to go.
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I just noticed Bob in the Woods endorsement of the PAST recoil pad before my own. These things work and IMHO are a better option than the lead sled. Again my opinion. I have heard of cracked stocks from led sled users.
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Another vote for PAST pads! Rotator cuff repairs are no joke!
J.B.
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(https://i.ibb.co/dJb7ctZN/DSC03160.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sJ5tPC7T)
keep the peep they work ( low light not so much)
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What???? No one likes my plastic wrap/masking tape/sleeping pad butt pad? It doesn't look historically correct? ;D
I will have to check out the PAST pad soon. I'd like to keep the functionality and look of my patchbox :)
Regarding my peep and globe in low light, I haven't tested shooting it in low light yet but I put some watch lume powder on the bead to hopefully help with that part.
Here's mine after putting the lume powder on. I ended up using the Lee shaver large dot size because my barrel is 36" and my max distance will be 150yd.... Maybe. Probably more like 100. The large size dot is about 0.040 and easier to get the glow paint on.
First I put a coat of white nail polish on the dot as a primer. The watch people say using a white background makes the lume powder glow a little brighter. Then I mixed some of the powder with clear coat nail polish. I trial and error mixed it until I got a mix that was liquid enough it would go on easily but thick enough it would be bright. I applied the mix with a toothpick.
This is a combo of the Lee shaver dot on post and the Lee shaver fine cross hair, which is about 0.015ish wire reticle.
I plan to window the globe with a few holes for extra light. Maybe. I'll test it first.
(https://i.ibb.co/pvrS5MM4/PXL-20250603-043950221.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XZkqMKKF)
(https://i.ibb.co/2YNL2D1Y/PXL-20250603-043929832.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Z1mwsnp1)
(https://i.ibb.co/wNgLZq41/PXL-20250603-043719133.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KjhGcgWH)
I hit it with my headlamp for a few seconds before taking this picture and it glowed for about 20 minutes. You can see it reflecting off the top flat at the bottom.
(https://i.ibb.co/wrRzbMBN/PXL-20250603-042916290-NIGHT.jpg) (https://ibb.co/93Nrfsc9)
(https://i.ibb.co/pBzkT4PW/PXL-20250603-043057132.jpg) (https://ibb.co/v6PMWLBs)
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One nice thing about the PAST pad is that you wear it not the gun. The gun stays unaltered. ;)
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Maybe just get a scope mounted!
Personally much of the appeal of a flintlock is the raw nature of it. Many shooters in our club (modern gun shooters) have do-dads out the wazoo to ensure they make little tiny holes all very close together. They speak of thousands of dollars worth of stuff to put a round in the same hole as the last one. They have never experienced spit lube flavored with a touch of dirty fingers or the joy of being sprayed by the pan flash of a neighboring shooter, never encountered the need to pull a ball due to a failure to fire and never had a cut thumb from a sharp flint carelessly handled. Oh the pain. Oh the JOY!!
Don't take the fun out of it!
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Don't take the fun out of it indeed! Excessive recoil can take the fun out of it for many shooters. ;)
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Maybe just get a scope mounted!
Personally much of the appeal of a flintlock is the raw nature of it. Many shooters in our club (modern gun shooters) have do-dads out the wazoo to ensure they make little tiny holes all very close together. They speak of thousands of dollars worth of stuff to put a round in the same hole as the last one. They have never experienced spit lube flavored with a touch of dirty fingers or the joy of being sprayed by the pan flash of a neighboring shooter, never encountered the need to pull a ball due to a failure to fire and never had a cut thumb from a sharp flint carelessly handled. Oh the pain. Oh the JOY!!
Don't take the fun out of it!
Well I hear ya. For this tag I have, it's muzzy only and no scopes allowed. This is as far as I'd go with my flintlock anyway. I really don't like seeing it on there, but it is kind of neat how well I can aim it. That is fun.
It's possible I'll move back over to my iron sights if I get my shooting issues figured out.
Reduce recoil. That's number one step to making it more fun ;)
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I concur. The flintlock was the most succesful gun ignition system before percussion, used for 200 years. A primitive system where a small rock is struck against a steel, lighting off a pan of simple gunpowder, which flashes a jet of hot gas through a touchhole to the main charge. All the parts to make and shoot one can be gathered from the frontier, or are common to trade. That is the attraction (to me). Not trying to get 2025 accuracy from a 1825 design.
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I cannot hold on a "bud", dot or center ring any more. The gun is always moving. I know when the gun is going off, however the slower the ignition, the more I miss the center, or swing back onto it. It's a $#@* shoot as to where the ball lands. That is what happens IF I don't flinch.
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A fellow used to come to the Western Nationals who before he browned or blued a barrel, would mount a scope on the barrel by epoxying
a weaver mount to the barrel. He would mount a scope on it and would work up loads with the scope. He did this in order to minimize sighting errors.
once he settled on a load, he would remove the scope and mount. He had his optimum load at 100 yards. All he had left to do was to sight in his iron sights with the optimal load. After that any bad shots were attributed to the jerk behind the trigger.
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"Where the ball lands"
That is so descriptive of shooting, well at least my shooting! It's always an adventure.
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Odd man out here I guess....
I'd be pretty happy with that at 100 yards with a flintlock.
How low if a charge have you tried? I have a gun, .615 smoothbore to be clear, that shoots best at 85 grains and down at 65 grains. You'll get more drop and gave to adjust for it, but maybe a lighter charge would help.
Some time spent at 25 yards and a light charge that groups well at that distance (even if it doesn't group well further out) with just enough prime to do the job might help with the "flinch" and form issue.
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Alacran, if memory serves me, Walter Cline, in The Muzzleloading Rifle - Then and Now stated that he mounted scopes on more than one rifle to see how well they would shoot. At my age - 81 year ols eyes and muscles, I now think that a temporary scope mpunt is a great idea. I freely admit having an obsession with tiny groups.
J.B.
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I made a .62 caliber “Hawken” 50 years ago. Worked for many hours to get the stock fit I wanted. Often shot 180 grains 2F with round ball. Pushed me back some but never bruised me, unless I tried to shoot it from a bench rest. I got really accurate from a sitting position and offhand.
Maybe your rifle doesn’t fit quite right?
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I made a .62 caliber “Hawken” 50 years ago. Worked for many hours to get the stock fit I wanted. Often shot 180 grains 2F with round ball. Pushed me back some but never bruised me, unless I tried to shoot it from a bench rest. I got really accurate from a sitting position and offhand.
Maybe your rifle doesn’t fit quite right?
It certainly won't bruise me if I'm not sitting at a bench. I think it does that at a bench because I'm so rigid and have a certain body position that makes the butt plate want to slip down a little and cause the corner of the heel to get me right in the joint.
Standing or other positions where I'm more upright and the muzzle pulls the butt upward, the butt plate sits much better. The LOP and drop are just right. I bring the gun up to my shoulder with my eyes close and the sights are aligned with my eye :)
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Odd man out here I guess....
I'd be pretty happy with that at 100 yards with a flintlock.
How low if a charge have you tried? I have a gun, .615 smoothbore to be clear, that shoots best at 85 grains and down at 65 grains. You'll get more drop and gave to adjust for it, but maybe a lighter charge would help.
Some time spent at 25 yards and a light charge that groups well at that distance (even if it doesn't group well further out) with just enough prime to do the job might help with the "flinch" and form issue.
I'm ecstatic with that last 80gr group at 100 yards. That's the first time that's happened! I hope that it repeats. I'll be practicing with that and trying some lower loads too. I've done as low as 60gr. I'll try that again and see what it looks like when the flinching is absent
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A fellow used to come to the Western Nationals who before he browned or blued a barrel, would mount a scope on the barrel by epoxying
a weaver mount to the barrel. He would mount a scope on it and would work up loads with the scope. He did this in order to minimize sighting errors.
once he settled on a load, he would remove the scope and mount. He had his optimum load at 100 yards. All he had left to do was to sight in his iron sights with the optimal load. After that any bad shots were attributed to the jerk behind the trigger.
That's a really good idea.
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(https://i.ibb.co/x8FsrxSN/20171003-164548.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wrcL25Nf) About 12-15 years ago after I built my hunting cabin I built a 10 foot square shooting deck. I knew that there would be at times some heavy kickers shot from atop of it so I made " stand up shooting benches " on the sides. For right and left handed shooters. It also has a sit down bench for modest kickers. 10x10 is ok for one shooter, cozy for two and crowded for 3 or more.
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A fellow used to come to the Western Nationals who before he browned or blued a barrel, would mount a scope on the barrel by epoxying
a weaver mount to the barrel. He would mount a scope on it and would work up loads with the scope. He did this in order to minimize sighting errors.
once he settled on a load, he would remove the scope and mount. He had his optimum load at 100 yards. All he had left to do was to sight in his iron sights with the optimal load. After that any bad shots were attributed to the jerk behind the trigger.
A few years ago I made a temporary scope mount that attached with the tang screw and extended forward over the barrel. I prevented side to side movement by making a piece with 2 wings that fit the barrel flats on either side of the top. I only shot a few rounds with it and it seemed to work ok for testing loads but I just couldn't get used to it on my flintlocks so I removed it. I don't have a photo and when the hurricane took the roof of my shop I haven't seen it since, even though I know it's still around.
After that I made simple rear peep sights and that cleared up the rear sight being out of focus. I can shoot almost as accurate with the peep as with a scope.
(https://i.ibb.co/qM6CkBZ2/peep.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8Dkb6MhQ)