Frustrated

[HighUintas]

How many of you have gotten so frustrated with your first flintlock you wanted to saw it in half and buy a cheap TC Hawken cap gun?

I'm nearly at that point with mine.

Accuracy isn't the worst ever, but I can't stop flinching from the pan going off, lower charge weights don't shoot accurately, and it hurts quite a bit to shoot loads that do.

100yd. 58 cal. 130gr 2f
Last few shots circled were definite flinches.





I'm sort of in between selling it, putting a different barrel on it, or getting a cheap TC Hawken

[Stoner creek]

Back then horses off. Seems like a bit more powder than you need. You could be tearing patches. Sometimes less is more.
W

[snapper]

130 grains is a lot of powder.   

Take a .22 rifle with you to the range.   Shoot it occasionally to work on your flinching.   Keep shooting the .22 until you stop flinching.   When you get back to the flintlock, work on your mental aspect.

Are you wearing shooting or safety glasses?

Fleener

[HighUintas]

Back then horses off. Seems like a bit more powder than you need. You could be tearing patches. Sometimes less is more.
W

It's not tearing patches with schuetzen, which is what that target is. . I've picked up quite a few and they could be reused. 

 130gr swiss definitely blows patches. I only shot that load twice. The balls didn't hit the target and the patches were shredded. It felt a little hot

It really doesn't seem to shoot as well until I get pretty up there in charge weight. Otherwise, I'd just use 70-90gr. That load feels good, but just isn't as accurate.

Even with the flinching, I can give the accuracy between the two just from the large number of shots I've tried.

[HighUintas]

130 grains is a lot of powder.   

Take a .22 rifle with you to the range.   Shoot it occasionally to work on your flinching.   Keep shooting the .22 until you stop flinching.   When you get back to the flintlock, work on your mental aspect.

Are you wearing shooting or safety glasses?

Fleener

Yes I always wear safety glasses. I don't want to gamble with my eyesight.

I know with certainty I don't flinch with a center-fire rifle. I can shoot them extremely well at long range and have verified it with dummy rounds. It is the pan going off that makes me flinch. I only use the minimum needed priming charge too.

[Daryl]

130 is in the middle of 3 slow twist .58's I had long time back. One needed 140gr.(Bill Large barrel) and the other 2 were production guns with 56" and 72".
With these loads, they shot between 1" and 2" at 100yds.
I have trouble flinching, even with my .32. I have the think through each shot as I make it and try to "see" the ball into the paper. If I don't, I flinch.
I flinch less with my big gun, but it's a caper in .69 cal. Percussion seems to help. I shoot
22's and many different air rifles with no flinch. Those do dot help with my flintlock flinch. Mine all have terrifically fast ignition, yet flinch I do. Maybe I've been sprayed on the trail too many times?

[HighUintas]

130 is in the middle of 3 slow twist .58's I had long time back. One needed 140gr.(Bill Large barrel) and the other 2 were production guns with 56" and 72".
With these loads, they shot between 1" and 2" at 100yds.
I have trouble flinching, even with my .32. I have the think through each shot as I make it and try to "see" the ball into the paper. If I don't, I flinch.
I flinch less with my big gun, but it's a caper in .69 cal. Percussion seems to help. I shoot
22's and many different air rifles with no flinch. Those do dot help with my flintlock flinch. Mine all have terrifically fast ignition, yet flinch I do. Maybe I've been sprayed on the trail too many times?

Mine is a '66 twist. It's also a deep round groove and even though I use 12oz Joann's denim, I still get hard fouling build up lower in the bore whether I use mink lube, spit, or hoppes and it loads pretty hard after a couple shots.

The flinch combined with the barrel has me wanting to get a different barrel and convert it to percussion. At least I got that rust problem solved though!

[Daryl]

The deep grooves I've never liked. About all I could suggest, is perhaps using a .570" ball and going to 14 ounce. The 12 ounce isn't thick enough.
I got great accuracy in my .69, even with a .675" ball (pure lead) or the hardened lead .677" ball (same mould) when using 14 ounce denim. No wiping. That should be a similar situation of fit, due to the smaller ball size  even though my rifling is only 12 thou. deep.

[HighUintas]

The deep grooves I've never liked. About all I could suggest, is perhaps using a .570" ball and going to 14 ounce. The 12 ounce isn't thick enough.
I got great accuracy in my .69, even with a .675" ball (pure lead) or the hardened lead .677" ball (same mould) when using 14 ounce denim. No wiping. That should be a similar situation of fit, due to the smaller ball size  even though my rifling is only 12 thou. deep.

My 12oz measures 0.022-0.023 when compressed with the caliper jaws like you do yours. And I use a 0.570 ball. The math says it should seal the grooves. But when I've pulled balls they don't have discernable patch imprints where the grooves are, so maybe the grooves are actually deeper than 0.016. I'm not able to see any blow by on the patches though, I don't think.

[Bill in Md]

Get real close to a target butt, about 6 feet, with a very safe backdrop.....Load your gun with a light charge and shoulder it. Get on target, then close your eyes, stay as steady as you can and pull the trigger....Do this until the urge to flinch passes.You are not shooting for accuracy here, but rather feel and follow through....The same principle applies to archey to solve the issue of snap shooting and target panic. Give it a try, it will help.

[Kurt]

Did you say this is your first flintlock? If it is, experiment with smaller flash pan charges to see if a less obvious flash will set the rifle off, and perhaps, reduce the urge to flinch. A just-right small flash pan charge will set the main charge off quicker, too.

[HighUintas]

Get real close to a target butt, about 6 feet, with a very safe backdrop.....Load your gun with a light charge and shoulder it. Get on target, then close your eyes, stay as steady as you can and pull the trigger....Do this until the urge to flinch passes.You are not shooting for accuracy here, but rather feel and follow through....The same principle applies to archey to solve the issue of snap shooting and target panic. Give it a try, it will help.

I had thought of doing that! I've had target panic with archery in the past trying to "time" the release with the wobble. The blind shooting works well. Or, at least shooting at a blank target where there's not really anything to aim at.

I will try this out next time I'm at a place I can do it

[HighUintas]

Did you say this is your first flintlock? If it is, experiment with smaller flash pan charges to see if a less obvious flash will set the rifle off, and perhaps, reduce the urge to flinch. A just-right small flash pan charge will set the main charge off quicker, too.

Yes. I used to put too much in there but have it at about minimum now.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Although you don't see patch imprint on the lead where the grooves go, you likely get enough obturation (sp?) of the ball upon ignition to seal your bore, and thus have no blow by.  This is good.  But your patch isn't carrying enough lube to dissolve the fowling from the previous shot, all the way to the charge.  So you are getting fowling build up at the breech.  Or you aren't using enough lube!  I shoot a .60 cal flint rifle with a 42" bbl using 86 gr. FFg GOEX and a .590" pure lead ball with .020" patching, and I never have to clean during a day's shooting.  Even so, when I'm on the line target shooting, and there is a break in the shooting, to change targets for example, I always load my rifle right away, then wrack it.  If I wait until the line is clear for then next relay, IO will have trouble getting that first ball down the bore over dried out fowling.  My patches are soaked but not dripping...I prelube my precut patches and store them in a tin with a hinged lid.  I'm sure you can get good accuracy with between 80 and 90 grains of FFg GOEX...I sure can.  I recently returned home from an annual rendezvous where all the shooting was at paper.  The rifle match was 25, 50, 75, and 100 yards, all offhand.  I placed first with my old Chambers' (Mark Silver) Virginia rifle described above.

[Bill in Md]

Did you say this is your first flintlock? If it is, experiment with smaller flash pan charges to see if a less obvious flash will set the rifle off, and perhaps, reduce the urge to flinch. A just-right small flash pan charge will set the main charge off quicker, too.

Yes. I used to put too much in there but have it at about minimum now.

If your touch hole is in the proper position, that is "sunset" or slightly higher you should never have to under charge your pan to get fast ignition. You should never have to "bank" your powder either. Such things are done to offset improper touch hole liner installation. You don't want to overload the pan. Just enough powder to be almost flush with the top of the pan as the frizzen bottom is slightly raised to seal the pan charge ..... These flintlocks we shoot are "primitive" weapons, yet function flawlessly with just a little attention to detail.

[Jeff Murray]

You might try 'dry firing' with a wood flint at a target on your wall to get used to the hammer fall and frizzen flip.  Try it with both eyes open so you can see where your sights are pointed when you pull the trigger and when the frizzen flips open.  Ignition with a flintlock takes longer than with a cap lock so you need to hold a little longer when you fire.  You might also try counting to 1001 when you pull the trigger while trying to hold on the target.  Follow through is critical with flintlocks.  Also have you tried a wad under your patch to see what that might do for accuracy.  The comment on a wet patch may help with fouling.  The other item that might be affecting you is trigger pull weight.  Trying to snatch a good shot does not work well for me.

[HighUintas]

Although you don't see patch imprint on the lead where the grooves go, you likely get enough obturation (sp?) of the ball upon ignition to seal your bore, and thus have no blow by.  This is good.  But your patch isn't carrying enough lube to dissolve the fowling from the previous shot, all the way to the charge.  So you are getting fowling build up at the breech.  Or you aren't using enough lube!  I shoot a .60 cal flint rifle with a 42" bbl using 86 gr. FFg GOEX and a .590" pure lead ball with .020" patching, and I never have to clean during a day's shooting.  Even so, when I'm on the line target shooting, and there is a break in the shooting, to change targets for example, I always load my rifle right away, then wrack it.  If I wait until the line is clear for then next relay, IO will have trouble getting that first ball down the bore over dried out fowling.  My patches are soaked but not dripping...I prelube my precut patches and store them in a tin with a hinged lid.  I'm sure you can get good accuracy with between 80 and 90 grains of FFg GOEX...I sure can.  I recently returned home from an annual rendezvous where all the shooting was at paper.  The rifle match was 25, 50, 75, and 100 yards, all offhand.  I placed first with my old Chambers' (Mark Silver) Virginia rifle described above.

I'm not sure I could get any more lube into the patch. I pre-cut all my 12 oz denim patches and and soak them and melted mink oil, and squeeze out the excess so that they're not dripping. There is a whole lot of extra lube in those patches. When I use spit or Hoppes cleaner to lube, they are completely soaked and nearly dripping. But,.maybe I wait too long to load another ball. It is very dry here.

I'll try loading immediately after next time. I usually dawdle a bit between shots

[HighUintas]

Did you say this is your first flintlock? If it is, experiment with smaller flash pan charges to see if a less obvious flash will set the rifle off, and perhaps, reduce the urge to flinch. A just-right small flash pan charge will set the main charge off quicker, too.

Yes. I used to put too much in there but have it at about minimum now.

If your touch hole is in the proper position, that is "sunset" or slightly higher you should never have to under charge your pan to get fast ignition. You should never have to "bank" your powder either. Such things are done to offset improper touch hole liner installation. You don't want to overload the pan. Just enough powder to be almost flush with the top of the pan as the frizzen bottom is slightly raised to seal the pan charge ..... These flintlocks we shoot are "primitive" weapons, yet function flawlessly with just a little attention to detail.

It's a hair below sunset. It's in a good spot. I only minimize the primer charge to reduce flash and flinch

[HighUintas]

You might try 'dry firing' with a wood flint at a target on your wall to get used to the hammer fall and frizzen flip.  Try it with both eyes open so you can see where your sights are pointed when you pull the trigger and when the frizzen flips open.  Ignition with a flintlock takes longer than with a cap lock so you need to hold a little longer when you fire.  You might also try counting to 1001 when you pull the trigger while trying to hold on the target.  Follow through is critical with flintlocks.  Also have you tried a wad under your patch to see what that might do for accuracy.  The comment on a wet patch may help with fouling.  The other item that might be affecting you is trigger pull weight.  Trying to snatch a good shot does not work well for me.

Trigger weight is good. I think I measured it around 3.5lbs.

I haven't tried an over powder wad, but I've been thinking I might try it. Or, at least try a lubed over powder patch. I've seen that give good results for others just like a wad.

I do sometimes dry fire with a wood flint and am able to hold steady through that. I think the difference is the flash and hiss of the pan with a real shot. But I'll try doing it every night this week or maybe just doing some charged pan dry fires, even though flints are getting scarce.

[HighUintas]

I am thinking of getting a replacement barrel from rice in square groove. That would at least alleviate my bore frustrations

[ColonialRifleSmith]

Not to beat a dead horse about powder, I'd like to provide an example. I've been shooting and building guns for over 50 years. I use 65gr FFG, in my .50 cal. .490 round ball w/.010 oiled patch. 42' barrel. I can hit a dinner plate at 125 yards 8 out of 10 times off-hand. Not bragging, just saying. 3 years ago, I shot a deer face-on in the chest, in a snowstorm, the day after Christmas at that range. The ball entered about 3" to the left of center, curved at an up angle, bounced off the spine mid body and angled back downwards, exiting the right buttox and breaking the femur on the way out. 

Again, not bragging, just trying to give you a picture of the power of 65gr FFG powder has. A black powder gun is just that. It's not a 30-06 and never will be, no matter how much powder you put in it. I would suggest not trying to correct your dope by powder charge, but by adjusting the sights.
If you need assistance with how to sight in your gun and work up a proper load, many members will be more than happy to help. Myself included.

[HighUintas]

Not to beat a dead horse about powder, I'd like to provide an example. I've been shooting and building guns for over 50 years. I use 65gr FFG, in my .50 cal. .490 round ball w/.010 oiled patch. 42' barrel. I can hit a dinner plate at 125 yards 8 out of 10 times off-hand. Not bragging, just saying. 3 years ago, I shot a deer face-on in the chest, in a snowstorm, the day after Christmas at that range. The ball entered about 3" to the left of center, curved at an up angle, bounced off the spine mid body and angled back downwards, exiting the right buttox and breaking the femur on the way out. 

Again, not bragging, just trying to give you a picture of the power of 65gr FFG powder has. A black powder gun is just that. It's not a 30-06 and never will be, no matter how much powder you put in it. I would suggest not trying to correct your dope by powder charge, but by adjusting the sights.
If you need assistance with how to sight in your gun and work up a proper load, many members will be more than happy to help. Myself included.

I am glad that you are able to shoot well and have an accurate load at 65gr in your 50. If you lived nearby, I'd invite you to come assist me in accomplishing the same.

I don't believe I mentioned anything about my charge weight being related to the trajectory of the ball. I do not wish to shoot 130gr out of this gun. It hurts.

Besides that, what is your ball speed? 1650-1700? Last time I measured, mine was around 1650. So, similar.

[alacran]

I built a Jaeger with a Rice .58 caliber Edward Marshal profile barrel. It is square bottom rifling. The rifle weighs in at a little over 9 pounds.
I had trouble at first with the patching. and the ball combination. I started with Jo Ann's $0 drill and .570 ball with 85 grains Goex 2f. Patching didn't hold up. Tried different patching 10 and 12 oz denim. I switched to a .562 ball and things began to improve. All of my patches during experimenting were bear oil lubed.
I found some tightly woven canvas that is .022 thick. My trouble with the patching is gone.
By the way I have a plinking load of 70 grains of Goex 2f that is very accurate. Also, a Hunting load of 110 grains of the same.
I have to commend you on not having more flinches on your target. Shooting 130 grains of powder off the bench will definitely make you flinch.
I had a round rifling Rice barrel in .50 that game me a lot of trouble with patching and fowling. I did figure it out, but it was a lot of powder and lead to do so.

[bob in the woods]

When sighting in rifles with stout loads, I make use of a " PAST" recoil pad, which does wonders in eliminating the hurt.  Sometimes I'll even use my shooting jacket for it's elbow protection.  Having said that, many of the loads I use for hunting are in the 100 to 140 gr range [ 20 and 10 bore fowlers]  and the stock design of my guns is very recoil friendly . I don't even really see the "flash" because I concentrate on sight picture.  I'm saying this, because I'm wondering about the stock design of your rifle. Is it a known design or a custom build ?   Buttplate style ?  Full stock ? 

[CLPace]

Where are you located in the "High Uinta's"? 
Maybe able to help if close enough, I am in Uinta county, UT.