Author Topic: Southern guns  (Read 7953 times)

Offline flint45

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Southern guns
« on: August 18, 2015, 06:57:55 AM »
I'm building a flint southern mountain style rifle, and I have a few questions. Should the trigger guard be inlet flush, or stand a little proud? Some of them I look at seem like the guard is surface mounted. Also, I may have made the lower forearm a little thin at the ramrod entry. I only have about an 1/8th inch of wood below the ramrod, and it is about .100 thicker at the breech. I think it should come down a little, but I am a little worried that the guard inlet might get in to the ramrod hole if I take it down enough to straighten the lower forearm. How much taper is "acceptable"?

54ball

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Re: Southern guns
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2015, 03:40:13 PM »
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=112.0

 Scroll through the southern rifles on the museum. When all else fails, consult originals. With that said I think you'll see most trigger guards were inlet.

 We are not in your build if you know what I mean, so honestly You are the one that's most qualified to answer your question.

 I will tell you this... Many original rifles have worn through on the bottom of the lower forestock revealing the ramrod. So that area is indeed thin. Some are found with wear plates from the ramrod entry to the trigger guard. I cant help but think that on some of these, the ramrod channel was broken through during construction.

 Like I said you are in it and without pictures it's hard to tell.

 You do have some options...A tapered ramrod, shortening the screw and in worst case a wear plate.  

 Depending on your layout.... The front Triggerguard screw can can miss the ranrod groove IE being behind it. Look at this rifle....http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14832.0
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 04:12:32 PM by 54ball »

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Southern guns
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2015, 03:46:16 PM »
The guard should be inlet. If it does break into the RR hole you have two options. Either taper the ramrod or grind out a little clearance in the underside of the guard extension or a combination of the two. Incidentally the lower fore end should have a slight taper front to rear, so you are fine there.

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Southern guns
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2015, 08:18:01 PM »
I'm building a flint southern mountain style rifle, and I have a few questions. Should the trigger guard be inlet flush, or stand a little proud? Some of them I look at seem like the guard is surface mounted. Also, I may have made the lower forearm a little thin at the ramrod entry. I only have about an 1/8th inch of wood below the ramrod, and it is about .100 thicker at the breech. I think it should come down a little, but I am a little worried that the guard inlet might get in to the ramrod hole if I take it down enough to straighten the lower forearm. How much taper is "acceptable"?

If you base your builds on particular guns, then most of these questions get answered for you.   I would recommend that until you have seen enough guns to come up with your own style.  

To your particular questions, how the trigger guard is inlet depends on the guard.   Some, like the typical E. TN guard, are inlet flush; but others have a bevel and are inlet to the bottom of the bevel.  

Normally, you won't have more than 1/8" of wood between the ramrod and the bottom of the stock.    I usually have about 1/32" of taper from the trigger guard to the rear entry and from the rear entry to the muzzle.  

The front extension of the trigger guard will almost always break into the ramrod hole on every rifle regardless of type.  I deal with that in a number of ways, as did the original builders.   First,  the ramrod is tapered.    For 54 caliber and down,  I start with a 7/16 rod and taper it down to 5/16" at the breech end.   It is 3/8" at the first thimble and tapers gradually from there to 5/16" at the rear entry.   That takes care of a lot of problems.   It means that my ramrod hole can be 11/32" with gives you a little wiggle room on the lower forearm thickness.  You can also  file a groove in the front extension of the guard.  

Because you are trying to make the forearm as thin as possible,  it is going to get tight for the ramrod.   You will also break into the ramrod hole from the lock mortice.   You will also see this on most original rifles.    I frequently have to file a groove in my front lock nail to accomodate the ramrod because there just isn't room to accomodate the full thickness of the front lock nail with a properly thin web between the barrel channel and the ramrod hole.   If you take apart an original rifle or a properly made contemporary rifle,  the stock will look like swiss cheese inside.    You frequently have break-throughs in the barrel channel, lock mortice, and ramrod hole/groove, and trigger/triggerguard inlets.  

  
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 08:22:29 PM by Mark Elliott »

Offline flint45

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Re: Southern guns
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2015, 05:59:58 AM »
Thanks for the replys. I guess what I'm getting at, is 1/8th of an inch thickness too thin to to leave without an entry thimble? I was going to use three simple round thimbles and cut the forearm straight, but if I do so, the entry thimble will be about.015 below the forearm surface,and if I omit the thimble, is 1/8th still too thin for no thimble? I guess I could use a thimble with an extension. Maybe I'm just worrying over nothing, but this rifle has had so many complications already

Offline EC121

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Re: Southern guns
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2015, 06:25:04 AM »
I have a new Tenn. rifle with a the entry cut square and a metal plate installed with a straight pipe in front of it.  that would work.
Brice Stultz

msw

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Re: Southern guns
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2015, 06:55:24 PM »
I agree ... go with the thimble!  (one guy's opinion ... free and doubtless well worth the cost!)

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Southern guns
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2015, 10:17:10 PM »
Thanks for the replys. I guess what I'm getting at, is 1/8th of an inch thickness too thin to to leave without an entry thimble? I was going to use three simple round thimbles and cut the forearm straight, but if I do so, the entry thimble will be about.015 below the forearm surface,and if I omit the thimble, is 1/8th still too thin for no thimble? I guess I could use a thimble with an extension. Maybe I'm just worrying over nothing, but this rifle has had so many complications already

Simple answer is NO, to your first question.   There should not be more than 1/8" of wood at the bottom of the lower forearm and lots of guns that  thin or thinner didn't have rear entry thimbles.   Of course, you also see lots of old gun where the wood had worn away to expose the ramrod; usually in the middle of the lower forearm.    With no thimble (including a tang or rear extension), you will also get wear at the rear entry.  

As to cutting the forearm straight,  that is almost impossible to do; and if you manage it,  it will look like it is sloped backward.    A straight line never LOOKS straight.  In order to LOOK straight,  you need about 1/32" of taper from the rear entry to the muzzle; hence why most of us do that.   However,  in the process of shaping the stock,  it is hard not to have the forearm 1/32" thicker at the breech end as opposed to the muzzle end.  

The bottom line, I think you are worrying about nothing.  Make the gun like you want.    In the grand scheme of things, you will get tired of it in a few years; sell it; and make another one.  I have never kept a gun more than a few years.


« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 10:22:14 PM by Mark Elliott »

Ric27

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Re: Southern guns
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2015, 11:07:31 PM »
I agree with Mark that an 1/8 of an inch is not to thin. Remember that the thinnest point is just at the very bottom of the ramrod hole circumference and that is gets thicker fast away for the center line. Nothing looks worse than a gun that has wood left on the should have come off. I put a little curve in the bottom of the forfend thinnest in the center so the bottom of the forearm has a slightly radius from the trigger guard to the entry pipe. Maybe 1/32 or so. Like Mark said a straight line will not look straight and you don't want a belly in the middle of the forearm. 

whetrock

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Re: Southern guns
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2015, 05:54:17 AM »
Flint45,
This photo may be of some use to you.  This is on a late period TN percussion rifle. The extension was soldered on. I've studied this rifle in detail and I think the extension was part of the original production. That is to say that I don't think it was a repair. (It is similar in both manner of manufacture and shape to others I have seen on other TN rifles from this area.)
There are schools of building within TN mountain rifles, just as there are schools within the PA tradition. And various schools used different techniques in dealing with the entry hole and rear pipe, etc. This is only one option. But in this technique, you will notice that the wood below the ramrod hole was quite thin.
 
Whet



« Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 06:35:56 PM by Whetrock (PLB) »

Offline flint45

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Re: Southern guns
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2015, 02:16:48 AM »
Whetrock, do you have more pictures of that rifle? Very interesting. I want to shape my forestock like that. V-shaped forestock, blended to a round lower forearm.

Offline Lucky R A

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Re: Southern guns
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2015, 03:44:26 PM »
Guys,
   Keep in mind that "old time makers" like modern makers varied greatly in their skill.  They made many mistakes.  The proof of those mistakes live on, and repeating their mistakes do not make them right of "period correct"   The example of the breakthrough just behind the entry thimble is an example.   Indeed the wood is quite thin through the forearm area.  This is why "wear plates" were installed.  Rifles were typically carried across a saddle with the forearm wearing against dirt impregnated leather, thus the need for a wear plate in this area.  This is not to say that wear plates were never used to hide an oops, but they did serve a very useful function --as well as a place for some artistic expression. 
     Learn from and study the originals, but do not be enslaved by them, a mistake is a mistake no matter when it was made...

Ron
"The highest reward that God gives us for good work is the ability to do better work."  - Elbert Hubbard

whetrock

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Re: Southern guns
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2015, 04:29:49 AM »
Ron, I may have misunderstood you, but it seems like you are suggesting that the thin forearm, especially the area behind the pipe extension, is a flaw in either design or craftsmanship.

If you are pointing out that this technique leaves some relatively unsupported wood directly behind the pipe extension, then I would agree. If a shooter lays a rifle built this way across a tree branch or log a little too roughly, that area may collapse. That’s true.

But is that something that modern builders need to think of as a mistake? Do we need to correct for it, and leave a lot more wood in the forearm?

I am a traditionalist. I know that not everyone shares that philosophy, and I don't mean to imply that they should. But I enjoy the proportions of an elegant antique. If I build one just like the old guy built it, and it ends up wearing in the same places that his work showed wear, then I guess I think of that wear as patina. That said, I don’t mean to suggest that it’s a good idea to repeat bad design, or bad architecture, for example. But not every “weak area” that shows damage in an antique longrifle is bad design. Many of the eastern longrifles of this late period were somewhat weak in certain areas. They were thin, and elegant—and somewhat vulnerable as a result.


« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 04:33:33 AM by Whetrock (PLB) »

whetrock

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Re: Southern guns
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2015, 04:30:11 AM »
Flint45, I don’t own that rifle, and I don’t have permission to post a bunch of photos of it. I wish I could. It is a very fine piece, albeit one that was “rode hard and put up wet”. The iron work on it is excellent. The wood work is elegant, with no extra wood anywhere.  I know my words don’t mean much without pictures. But my point is just to say that my overall impression is that the guy who built it was a fine craftsman.

Here are a few links that may be useful to you.
1. Link to southern pieces of this general type in the ALR library:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=112.0

2. Link to a rifle that is similar in many ways to the one from which my photo came. (The rifle in this link does not does not have the “V” forearm and it has a more significant step at the entry hole. But the overall architecture and the techniques used are is very similar.) (As the intro note mentions, the muzzle of this rifle has been cut back a bit. That seems to have included cutting through the cast muzzle cap.)
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=18547.0

3. An Ambrose Lawing piece. (Mr. Lawing had his shop just west of Erwin TN, along the present day route of highway 26 to Ashville NC.) His work is often compared to that of the Bean clan, and is similar in some ways.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8921.0

4. Soddy Daisy (a school of building based on a place name, near Chattanooga, TN).
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=2302.0      The cheek piece relief on this first one does indeed run all the way to the butt plate. These rifles often (but not always) have an asymmetrical butt plate (when viewed from the back).

Also: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=6000.0    This second example does not seem to have the asymmetrical butt plate. Does have the V forearm.

Whetrock
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 04:48:24 AM by Whetrock (PLB) »

Offline Lucky R A

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Re: Southern guns
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2015, 02:05:49 PM »
   Not suggesting that thin forearms are a flaw at all.   We all like to achieve a nice thin well proportioned forearm.  What I was trying to say is, that on that particular rifle the breakthrough was caused by one or a combination of several things.  My first guess is that the web might have been  a smidge thick, and the entry pipe extension appears to be fairly flat, and in an effort to achieve a thin forearm the builder nearly went through into the ramrod hole.  It did not take a lot of wear to break through.  Had the hole been a smidge closer even 1/16 to the barrel and the entry pipe extension been domed more there would have been additional wood to prevent this.  The maker of this rifle may have done superb work on the rest of the rifle, but at this location he had a problem.  I only wanted the new builders to understand that this is a problem.   By applying a couple of corrective actions they can avoid the same error, and still have with the desired architecture.

Best wishes
Ron
"The highest reward that God gives us for good work is the ability to do better work."  - Elbert Hubbard

whetrock

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Re: Southern guns
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2015, 08:19:27 PM »

Thanks for taking time to elaborate, Ron.  Your notes are very helpful.
Whet