Keeping FFF in the barrel

[Lori Ann]

Hello, I just started shooting fff Swiss in my gun it’s very accurate. When carrying the gun for hunting I loose powder out the touch hole. Does anyone have a trick to keep the powder in the barrel. When I shoot it after carrying it for a few days I get a hang fire. Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks, Gary

[T*O*F]

Your touch hole is too big.  When it starts self-priming, it's time to replace it.

[MuskratMike]

I shoot nothing but 3F in everything fron .40 to .54 and have never experienced "self" priming. I however use Goex not Swiss but agree your vent hole may be too large.

[P.Bigham]

Toothpick

[Notchy Bob]

I think old-timers used a small feather in the touch hole to keep it from leaking powder, and to keep moisture out.  Touch hole feathers and "feather holes" in the stock were covered pretty extensively on this forum a few months ago.  You can probably do a search and find it.

If you are leaving your rifle loaded for several days, I might suggest moisture in the powder may contribute to the problem, although, as I think you are suggesting, a train of powder in the flash channel can serve as a "fuse" and thus delay ignition, also.

I have seen "self-priming" flintlocks mentioned in the literature at least a couple of times.  People on the frontier didn't see this in the same way we look at it now.  A self-priming flintlock was actually considered an advantage in some circumstances, because it saved a step in the loading sequence.  John Palliser stated that a self-priming flintlock was the best gun for running buffalo, and I think Rudolph Kurz mentioned it as well.

In my opinion, this may also be one reason flintlock trade guns held on for so long in the far north.  I'm sure handling percussion caps in extreme cold may be difficult.  A self priming flintlock would solve the problem.

Notchy Bob

[smylee grouch]

You might try 1&1/2 swiss.

[Brokennock]

James Audubon, c1810, describing his host preparing to go raccoon hunting:



"… He blows through his rifle to ascertain that it is clear, examines his flint, and thrusts a feather into the touch-hole. To a leathern bag swung at his side is attached a powder-horn; his sheath-knife is there also; below hangs a narrow strip of homespun linen. He takes from his bag a bullet, pulls with his teeth the wooden stopper from his powder-horn, lays the ball in one hand, and with the other pours the powder upon it until it is just overtopped. Raising the horn to his mouth, he again closes it with the stopper, and restores it to its place. He introduces the powder into the tube; springs the box of his gun, greases the "patch" over with some melted tallow, or damps it; then places it on the honey-combed muzzle of his piece. The bullet is placed on the patch over the bore, and pressed with the handle of the knife, which now trims the edge of the linen. The elastic hickory rod, held with both hands, smoothly pushes the ball to its bed; once, twice, thrice has it rebounded. The rifle leaps as it were into the hunters arms, the feather is drawn from the touch-hole, the powder fills the pan, which is closed. “Now I’m ready,” cries the woodsman….

Journals, Vol. 2, (1972 reprint), page 492.

So a feather is being used here to keep powder from the main charge from self priming too soon. Not sure it would help or be practice with an issue of powder transferring from barrel to pan while wandering in search of game.
I do use a "toothpick" with the end outside the gun colored red, or one of those heavier wooden skewers that a deli uses to hold a sandwich together that has the red decoration on the end, to plug the hole when I leave the gun loaded in between days out in the woods.

It does sound like a replacement liner with a smaller hole is your best option.

[Maineshops]

Is the frizzen is closed when you charge the barrel? I guess I’m not understanding the process. I  wouldn’t think you could lose too much powder out of the barrel? Curious .Dan

[577SXS]

The feather trick is a good one. My frizzens fiy pans so tight that you have to load with frizzen open to let air out. Only have one gun with flash hole big enough to let a little FFF to come out when loading. You might tamp you load a little tighter to prevent powder from coming out vent. I would not use toothpick because it may break off flush and use might have to push it into barrel to open flash hole.

[Bob McBride]

I would not use toothpick because it may break off flush and use might have to push it into barrel to open flash hole.

Been there. Done that. More than once.

[Daniel Coats]

I used to have a rifle that self primed. For a short time I just closed the frizzen when loading then one day the risk for accidental discharge occurred to me while I was at the bang end of the barrel.

[recurve]

In the song Yankee doodle " stuck a feather in his hat and called it...……"  historical correct to use feathers in the touch hole keeps powder dry/in till game or Red Coats sighted 

Feathers are much less likely to breakoff than tooth picks.

[JW]

It sounds like you're not carrying the gun at half cock when hunting?  Aside from the bird feather, you could use a frizzen/hammer stall while keeping your gun at half cock. Self priming guns aside, period guns with larger touch holes were also usually charged with coarser powder then we use, so less lost out the touch hole when the hammer was open. Also, I would hazard a guess that many rifles were loaded with priming powder first as in military musket drill, which would leave the frizzen/hammer closed when loading the main charge. Now that I think about it, I'm trying to recollect reading some anecdotal evidence to the contrary in regards to period rifle loading. 

[Daryl]

Also, I would hazard a guess that many rifles were loaded with priming powder first as in military musket drill, which would leave the frizzen/hammer closed when loading the main charge.

That is the military drill, ie: "throwing the rod" onto the ball 3-times. That was to ensure the ball was on the powder in a musket.  Many military 'rules' carried over into regular ML practices.
I do not "through" the rod onto the ball, which will compress the powder more than I like. I do place the hole in the short starter's knob on top of the rod and give that a smack- exactly the same
every time I load. That practice gives me the same compression of the powder by the patched ball each time. This produces very close shot to shot velocities, oft times, less than 10fps between
the slowest and fastest in a 10 shot string. I rarely/never see that consistency in other fellows chronographed results.

In shooting a ML, accuracy comes from uniformity, ie: consistency. Consistency, though art a jewel. Something to remember and to emulate.

Further - 'throwing the rod' onto the ball was thought to "meal" the powder, thus destroying accuracy.

In a test, I compared to 'just' pressing the ball onto the powder, against the little thump I give the starter's knob with my hand.  The results were much closer shot to shot uniformity, as well
as 100fps higher average velocity - in my .45 cal. test rifle, using the latter method.

Something else I have noted, is that my velocities per grain of powder, usually exceed that of other people's loads. I find that interesting.

[Marcruger]

I agree with Daryl on not "Throwing The Rod".  To me that is a bad holdover from musket days. 

Consistent pressure and full seating can best be felt by even pressure on the rod, not slamming it into the ball and charge. 

I also question the shape of the ball once a heavy rod has slammed off the ball a few times.  In a musket that didn't matter, as the enemy was usually in a wide line, so accuracy was not paramount.  I hear someone say, "Well my rod isn't heavy".  Then why bounce it off the ball if it isn't seating the ball? 

With regards to the original question, I would also ask, "You aren't keeping the charge in a fouled barrel are you?"  That is a surefire way to destroy a bore.  I used to hear folks say, "Yep, you have to foul the bore at the start of the season, and then load a charge so the first shot out of the barrel flies true."  How many thousands of barrels have been ruined by that old "wisdom"??  Powder sure has an affinity for moisture, so I don't leave one loaded long. 

God Bless,   Marc

[Daryl]

so I don't leave one loaded long. 
God Bless,   Marc

In a fouled bore (storage).
While hunting, is fine, waiting for the next shot at a duck, squirrel, etc.
Discharge or pull the load and clean that day, though.

[Eric Krewson]

I have one gun a friend gave me that has large touch hole, with a Roll lock it goes off very fast, it will self prime with 3F, toothpick to the rescue.

I though about changing the liner but a quick check with my bore scope showed it to be threaded into the breechplug and it isn't coming out. I also found the pins holding the stock to the barrel are finishing nails with the heads still on. Removing a pin takes a chunk out of the stock, I found out the hard way.

I guess I will leave well enough alone, I actually like how the gun goes off.

[rich pierce]

That is a very fine borescope. What is it?

[Lori Ann]

The touch hole is 1/16”. The gun is only three years old. I have shot around 300 rounds through it. I just thought there might be a trick to stop it.
Thanks for all the input,Gary

[hanshi]

All mine are drilled out to 1/16" and no larger.  Ignition is fast and sure.  But still, I can get a bit of self priming by smacking the off-side lock panel.  It's never more than a few kernels so I'm confident normal handling won't cause leakage.  I use 3F Goex or similar grade.

[Daryl]

Same here Hanshi, in the little .36 and in the .40 and .45, when I had those. 1/16" vent - no trouble with lost powder.
I've tried closing the frizzen when loading, and there was never more than a few granuals of powder in the pan after seating the ball
certainly not enough for a priming charge.

[MuskratMike]

Daryl: On my .40 I have experienced the exact results as your post. if all 3 of us have the same results it must be so, right?

[Daryl]

I would expect so, Mike.  Now, a .090" to .100" hole will allow quite a blast of powder out that vent when seating a tight load.
I know that for a fact.  We had this happen with a rifle many years ago - a new vent 'fixed' that problem.

[Eric Krewson]

The bore scope is a $12 one off ebay, shipped free. The one I took the picture with gave up the ghost after about 10 years. I just bought another just like my first, it works as well.

I just took this picture of a TC breech with my new $12 bore scope so I could answer a guys question on another board. That is not rust, the other camera took blue pictures, this one takes brown ones.

[moleeyes36]

Your touch hole is too big.  When it starts self-priming, it's time to replace it.

Yes, as TOF says, the touch hole is too big for the pieces of powder.  After having shot GOEX 3fg for years with no self priming in guns with a 1/16" touch hole.  When I switched to Swiss 3fg a good number of years ago, I often experienced self priming in the same guns I'd been shooting.  It appears to me that Swiss 3fg may be a slightly finer grind than GOEX 3fg.  I changed out the vents with White Lightnings with a slightly smaller touch hole and the self priming stopped with no loss in ignition speed.  Replace the liners with ones having a slightly smaller hole and your problem will go away.

Don Richards