Best patch size/ material for .524 ITX roundball

[Steve Patterson]

Help. I'm stuck in CA under the condor zone. Bought 30, .54 itx roundballs with a stated size of .524. I'm pretty new to blackpowder shooting. I've got a pedersoli frontier with a stated twist rate of 1:65. Has anyone worked up a load for something close to this? I'm using 3f powder. What size charge and patching should I start with? Ive got 4 kids so time and money are definately factors in begging for help at $12 for 10 balls
.

[smylee grouch]

If it were me, I would move to the US. OK other than that you will have to try some different patches and lube. At those prices it might hurt but start with 20/1000 thick tightly woven prewash denim.

[smylee grouch]

I forgot to ask in the last post, will this be for target shooting or hunting? Can you use lead for target shooting?

[Steve Patterson]

Yeah, that'd be nice. Thank you. I'll start with that. What's the "normal" starting point you use for patches when working up a new load? 0.01 over total bore size or something? Ive done some reloading of unmentionables but I always had the reloading manual as a start point / guide. Didn't even know where to begin other than stuffing it as tight as i could with a light charge and moving up the powder until I got a good group.

This is for hunting. I use lead for target shooting and stump shooting

[Steve Patterson]

Oh I see what you're getting at. I'll see if I can find some .524 lead. Thanks for pulling my head out of..... the sand.

[Larry Pletcher]

HI Steve,
Steve Chapman and I did a test of these balls with hunting accuracy in mind.  The link below is for the write-up.  We found a couple of concerns with ITX while testing.Because of their hardness we were very careful with patching.  We did not want to allow cut patches to cause damage to the rifling.  Our test rifle had a very good crown that we think is a requirement for shooting this ball. 

Our test balls were for a .50 rifle.  The balls were listed as .487 and .490.  These balls also had a belt that we tried to load parallel to the muzzle.  (Hope that makes sense.)  We seated one in the muzzle with a large piece of patching and tried to pull it out. Instead the patch material tore, leaving the patched ball in the barrel. We removed the nipple, loaded powder and seated the ball to shoot it out. 

Another concern was dry-balling.  You won't be pulling this ball - it will have to be shot out.

Accuracy was not as good as a pure lead load, but we felt it was acceptable out to 100 yds.  I'm sure there are other things mentioned in the article that I'm not explaining well. Our biggest concern was "Would this ball damage rifling?" I'd approach this carefully, Looking at your recovered patches carefully. 

https://www.blackpowdermag.com/itx-non-lead-field-test-for-accuracy/

Regards,
Pletch

[Frank]

If you are anywhere near San Diego get hooked up with this group. Lots of good folks there.

https://sdcml.wordpress.com/

[Hungry Horse]

First I would mic the balls to make sure they are the size they say they are. I would as mentioned make sure the crown on your rifle is smooth and round edged ( per instructions on this forum by Daryl). I would use either tightly woven denim, or cotton pocket drill, from the fabric store, or a comparable thickness linen napkin, or table cloth from the thrift store. For patch lube in California, I would use venison, mutton, or goat, tallow, as is, or beef or buffalo, tallow with a little lard melted into it. I would avoid prepared patch potions, and exotics from the grocery store.
 I live in California too, and think the bullet laws are designed to create wounded game, and stop hunting in general.

  Hungry Horse

[Steve Patterson]

Thank you all for your help.

Larry, great article. Thanks for your time and effort doing that.

Frank, I'd love to go down and shoot with them but Im in eastern madera county between Fresno and Yosemite.  The only time I make it to that area is for fires. Maybe in a few years I'll have more time to travel. The kids will be shooting soon as they can hold them up.

Horse, I found the thread on cutt patches so I'll get some 600 grit and the humb going. I've got some denim and cotton duck (old pants). I'll hit joannes for some drill next time I make it to town. I have some bear oil I'll try out as patch lube and put the word out to friends to save me kidney or udder fat next time they butcher. Yes CA laws are a waste of taxpayer money. We need a law that they can't propose a bill until the buisness of running the state is completed.

Looks like unless I get super lucky with load development  I'll continue hunting this year with the unmentionable and prepare for next season with the BP.

Thanks again for all the help. When I figure out what works best for this rifle I'll post it here so others have a starting point.

[smylee grouch]

Hi  Steve: If you decide to start shooting lead round balls you will probably need a different size than 524 ITX
 You might try 530s in lead but once you figure out the best size you can have Jeff Tanner make  a mold in any size you want if a regular mold is unavailable.

[Daryl]

Hi Steve - good advice from all imho.  The crown is quite important when loading these quite hard balls.

If indeed, they are .524", THAT will help. The band around the centre makes for interesting time figuring patch thickness. Best just to try some and

pick up the fired patches. Hold them up to a light bulb and looks for cutting on the lands or from those corners of the band on the ball.

I was going to test a couple different sizes, but the boys up here were afraid to lend rifles for fear of bore damage with the .489" ITX balls that were sent.

I think that was the size iirc. The fairly wide band spooked us.  Bet they'd be great in an appropriately sized 2-groove rifle that matched their sizing.

[Steve Patterson]

Hi  Steve: If you decide to start shooting lead round balls you will probably need a different size than 524 ITX
 You might try 530s in lead but once you figure out the best size you can have Jeff Tanner make  a mold in any size you want if a regular mold is unavailable.

Yep I've been shooting .535 Hornady lead balls with spit lubed .020 pilow ticking but needed the itx for hunting in the "condor zone". Don't want to lose the rifle to the dfw evidence locker over a lead ball.

[drago]

I would try making a ball catcher, a card board box full of rubber mulch. It shouhd'nt damage the balls so you can reuse them.

[Steve Patterson]

I would try making a ball catcher, a card board box full of rubber mulch. It shouhd'nt damage the balls so you can reuse them.

Ooooo I like it!

[Dobyns]

Rotometals has 88% bismuth 12% tin bars available for casting lead-free alternative.  Per their site, it melts at 395F and casting at 500F is recommended.  Hardness is 19bhn and weight about 30% less than a typical Pb/Sb/Sn bullet., so figure a .524" will weigh 180gr or a tick more.  Its not inexpensive at $15.59/#, but you'll get 38+ balls/# due to the lower than lead density.  If you can recover them after shooting, you can melt and cast again, and no worries about damaging the bore with a cut patch.

[Steve Patterson]

Thanks Dobyns. Maybe I'll buy the stuff for that and save it a few years until my kids grow up a bit. Have 3 under 5 years and a 9 yo so don't want to cast until they aren't growing so fast. Don't want them soaking up heavy metals into bones. I like your idea though and will keep it in mind for later

[Dave Patterson]

When we were discussing this yesterday, the whole "condor-zone" issue, let alone ball-diameter, never even occurred to me... and it should have.

That, in itself, explains a lot about the wild results you were describing.

Yep:  your "fix" is going to be more in patch (thickness and material) and lube; THEN start your search for your "pet" powder charge.

Couldn't figger out quite what was going on for you; I'd found that barrel to be quite surprising, for an import/production barrel.   That's why you've got it.  But that sub-size ball is your problem you were reporting.

I'll see what I've got for thicker, natural-fiber patching.  We've still got a whole raft of worn, well-washed cow-country clothes to choose from.

Meanwhile, there's this:  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4330.0

and, do you still have a grain-weight reloading scale?  As mentioned, a little weighing and measuring (mic-ing potential patch materials, etc) might reveal some issues and potential fixes.

Another option:  shelve the entire project, 'til, as you say, my grandkids are a little more grown, and you feel better about casting your own ball, using a custom, full-size mold. 

Toward that direction, has anyone here done any accuracy testing with the lead-free balls in a larger-bore smoothbore?   Next ball-size up from the (nominal) .54RB is a .601":  much closer to full diameter 20ga, than their .54 cal offering.  Steve's living in brush country, with heavy forest just up the slope:  long, desert-country shots aren't an issue...  but the groups he was reporting (and the lad's a shooter) weren't at all acceptable for hunting.

[axelp]

I too am in CA and I helped in testing and developing ITX back in 2009. What I use for patching is a thin heavily greased chamois leather. I use the smaller ball size for 50 cal .487. I am very careful loading. I have not noticed any damage to my bore when shooting ITX. I use it for hunting only, and a few target shots every so often. Its never going to be a perfect sub for lead, but it works.

ITX shot on the other hand is an excellent alternative to lead shot in a smoothbore. It can make for really great patterns for turkey and Squirrel. And the smaller scale diameter of the shot, compared to the roundball sizes, means you can literally crush this shot with a pair of pliers, its that soft.

As far as 80/20 or 88/12 bismuth/tin home cast ball. I have tried that too. The only challenge with using bismuth and tin is that it gets bigger when cooling so you might need to use a smaller mould diameter to get the right size. Also I found that bismuth and tin tends to separate when reheating a pre-mixed ingot, so be sure to stir it before you pour. too much bismuth in your mix and you get a ball that will crack and shatter. Too much tin and your ball does not have the weight and will not penetrate as well for hunting purposes. I prefer the 80/20 mix.

Ken Prather

[Steve Patterson]

Thank you all again. I'm still slowly working on it. I'll get you my answer when I've tried all of your suggestions.