Bunker Hill Musket

[debnal]

I specifically collect Rev War identified weapons. All my guns have a name on the them that identifies it as the one carried by that individual. After over 40 years of collecting I have seven guns. They are that rare. Can someone please tell me how a musket, with absolutely no connection to the Rev War, other than a family story, is worth 400K?
Al

[WESTbury]

AL- I'm still trying to find out who Jonathan Holstein, the author of the 50 page book relating to all of this story, is.

As to the unmarked musket, I am reminded of the story told, by either Greg Martin or Norm Flayderman, about receiving a phone call from a nice lady that wanted to sell the family's Rev War musket. Upon arrival at the lady's house, either Greg or Norm asked to see the musket. She went to another room to get the Rev War musket and returned with a Model 1861 Springfield Rifle Musket.

[Dennis Glazener]

They are that rare. Can someone please tell me how a musket, with absolutely no connection to the Rev War, other than a family story, is worth 400K?
Al

Al,
That an easy question to answer, a person with lots of easily obtained money wanted one of those "They are that rare" muskets and was eager to trade $400,000 of his easily obtained money for that musket and story.

That's why when asking the value of some antique its a coin toss, who will be bidding and how well heeled they are and do they have a similiar well heeled person that wants the antique just as bad as the other person.
Dennis

[JTR]

I think i'm whiffing the foul odor of jealousy here,,,,,

[WESTbury]

Okay, link to WBUR News article on Simpson Musket.

https//www.wbur.org/news/2019/10/14/bunker-hill-musket-auction

link to Jonathan Holstein 50 page "book" about Simpson.

https//d279m997dpfwgl.cloudfront.net/wp/2019/10/Bunker-Hill-Musket-History.pdf

[Dennis Glazener]

I think i'm whiffing the foul odor of jealousy here,,,,,

Not on my part John, I am a tight wad and when something I want is sold for more than I am willing or unable to pay I say more power to them, I had my chance and chose to pass. Now I have been known to pay more than I wanted to and often was sorry later but it was my own fault and no one elses.
Dennis

[Molly]

Anyone know what the rifle with the price ($18) engraved on the box lid brought?  Last I saw the projections was $6000 to $12000 and it was standing at a bid if $6000.  Sorry, cannot recall the name of the maker.

[WESTbury]

Morphy has already posted the final sales prices. You should be able to find it.

[rich pierce]

Anyone know what the rifle with the price ($18) engraved on the box lid brought?  Last I saw the projections was $6000 to $12000 and it was standing at a bid if $6000.  Sorry, cannot recall the name of the maker.

Not sure if you mean the Bucks County Rifle by Weiker. That went for $14k.

http://auctions.morphyauctions.com/lot-465791.aspx

[Molly]

That's it.  Pretty nice rifle and while I don't think it's in my budget I don't feel the price is all that bad.  Lots of stuff out there in original longrifle land being offered for 2 or 3 time and not as nice IMO.  Thanks.

Just a PS.  I have not really studied the prices but on a rather superficial basis it seems that many did not make the pre-auction estimates.  So what does that say about the market if it is a correct conclusion?

[rich pierce]

I attended a local auction that was also online and though it had no spectacular longrifles the ones they had sold reasonable at 1/2 to 2/3 predicted price. Lots of unsigned later percussion longrifles going in the $350 to $600 range. I’ll be revising what I might offer for sort of generic longrifles.

Signed guns are always going to appeal more. At some auctions online there are mixes of everything with longrifles a small portion of the lot. There is much broader interest in more recent guns shall I say.

Historically significant guns span interests well beyond longrifle collectors and do attract the big money crowd.

[JV Puleo]

Probably 95% of the potential buyers have no objective way of assessing the story. Neither have they any first-hand experience with primary documentation so the holes in a so-called "professional" report will not be obvious. We see this every day. Collectors WANT TO BELIEVE...and thus are always fooling themselves.

[smokinbuck]

They are worth what the buyer will pay. Went to an auction looking at a specific rifle that "I" thought was worth in the $1,000 - 1,200 range. It passed that in 2 breaths and sold for $6,000. I asked the buyer what made it worth those numbers and he indicated he wasn't a collector but it was from his home town. Another auction had a pair of pistols mounted on a plaque with the builder's business card. Builder was from the 1860's period. Sold for almost 4 times the established value because the buyer's 10 year old son collected business cards. Go figure.

[WESTbury]

Some years ago, I observed a factual mistake concerning a flintlock musket on the web-site of a noted researcher, author, and dealer. I contacted him by phone the next day and spoke with him at length. The mistake was acknowledged by the gentleman and he immediately followed by this uttering this statement: "I rely on potential customers not to have read the research." 

[spgordon]

The concern with the idea that the item is "worth what the buyer will pay"--which I generally believe in as a principle--is that in so many of these cases the buyers are deciding what to pay based on inaccurate and sometimes invented information.

I purchase a lot of old postcards and, if I'm willing to pay $100 for a postcard, I agree that (as surprisingly as it is to some!) that postcard is worth $100. But if I learn that the postcard is a reproduction and sold as an original, it is not worth $100 and wasn't even though I paid that much. Deliberate fraud or even negligently inaccurate listings compromise the generally fair-enough principle that an item is "worth what the buyer will pay."

[mr. no gold]

If my information is correct, the 'Bunker Hill' musket is now in the ownership of the National Museum of Military Vehicles in Wyoming. If not on display now, it is supposed to be available for viewing soon.
Apparently this is a very unheralded museum with one of the largest collections of military vehicles and other items in the US. It is located on a large ranch and so there is a lot of territory to operate most, if not all the equipment.
The title for the 'first shot fired' at Bunlker Hill seems to have some other contenders. A Lt. Joseph Spaulding is also said to have done so, and there may have been more than one individual with that name on the Hill that day, so it becomes a bit muddled.
Dick

[Shreckmeister]

Yesterday a man tried to sell me a patriotic silk sash.  He had a story that the soldiers leaving Butler PA were given the sashes for their parade when they left
for the civil war.  Quick research found the sash to be a Centennial celebration sash.  I have to say it looked plausible to the story and was considering it.
Now I will consider it at a lower cost.

[WESTbury]

I see that this Dutch Musket is now in Wyoming. It probably was not even that close to Bunker/Breed's Hill on June 17, 1775.

[smart dog]

Hi Guys,
While I too am very skeptical that the gun is the first to shoot at Bunker Hill, I have seen no evidence from any of you that it could not be.  Some of you make statements of certainty that the gun was never used at BH and some say even the Rev War.  What it your evidence for that?  Based on my limited research into these Dutch muskets, the style of the gun is plausible for early in the war.  Skepticism based on evidence is healthy, skepticism based on "gut feeling" is bias and most often wrong.

dave

[JTR]

I agree with Smart dog on this.

John

[Mike Brooks]

I agree with Smart dog on this.

John

I don't. Ben Franklin went to Europe during the war to scoop up all available muskets and this one fits the bill perfectly. The chances of this particular model of gun being here at the beginning of the war is pretty slim. Towards the middle or end of the war is probably when this musket arrived in North America. Family stories have a habit of being "generally true" but not "specifically true". Mark me down as a doubter on this one, too good a story to be true. I have no definitive proof. Neither do the people who promote this as the "fist shot musket". My assumption is probably more likely.

[WESTbury]

The problem with "Dutch" muskets is that it appears to have been a generic term to differentiate muskets purchased by Britain from muskets made under the Ordnance System ie. The Kings Pattern aka The Brown Bess. The Brits purchased many thousands of "Dutch" muskets (also barrels) in 1706, 1715, 1741, and 1745. These were iron mounted and brass mounted with pinned 45" barrels.

There are two documented Dutch muskets marked for the colony of South Carolina one is brass mounted with a 46" barrel. See pgs 149-160 of the book Of Sorts For Provincials.

The colonial governments of Rhode Island, Massachusetts Bay, and New Hampshire are documented as receiving in 1757, Land Service Muskets of the King's Pattern again the Long Land Brown Bess. See pgs 145-148 of the book mentioned above. Interestingly, Private Simpson of Bunker Hill fame was with John Stark's New Hampshire troops on June 17, 1775.

To further stir the pot, during the Federal Period, the U.S. purchased so-called "Dutch" from the Low Countries, muskets which were shipped from Hamburg. Some may have been Dutch Type IV muskets. Also, many Dutch muskets were sold on the open market in New York and Boston in the early 1800's. per George Moller American Military Shoulder Arms, Vol. II pgs 6-9.

Finally, very good friend of mine that belongs, ASAC states that Moller gave a presentation during which the subject of Dutch flintlock muskets came up, he was quite adamant that, in his opinion, none of the extant brass banded Dutch muskets were here during the Rev War. Don't know how much credence to put in that statement but his reputation as a researcher is impressive.

Does any of the above definitely, 100%, preclude Private Simpson from having held the banded Dutch musket at Bunker Hill?