Help identifying my first black powder rifle

[CopperRed]

Hi Everyone
Can you please help me identify my first black powder rifle?    I purchased it last month at a flea market in Belgium.   I was pretty excited to find it!   I work for the military over here and can't wait to learn about the musket.   It's a smooth bore and the antique dealer I bought it from at the flea market believes it is British from the mid 1800's.    I've attached several pictures

Thank you
Copper Red

[Seth Isaacson]

It looks like a British East India Company Model F/Pattern 1842 style musket. I'm not super familiar with those, and I know there are some other similar models, but that should give you an idea of where to start in researching it. The crown/GP and crown/V markings are London Gunmakers Co. proof and view marks.

[JV Puleo]

Post some photos on the British Militaria forum. They even have a sub-forum devoted to East India Company arms.

[CopperRed]

Thank you both.   That is great advice

[Pukka Bundook]

Yes, do as Joe suggests, they know these muskets well there! (BMF )
It looks like a pattern or model F to to me as well. These arms made for the EIC are very interesting. If you dismount the lock and barrel, please show us all the marks.
There will be various code marks, a letter and a number. this will tell us the maker, inspector and such of all the parts.
This information is not available for very many arms, and adds so much to them, when we know all their history.
There should be marks on the stock as well, on  the butt, behind the trigger guard, and in the ramrod channel.  If you can get pictures of these as well, they will be very helpful.
The date codes will tell you when each part was made, by year, and who made it.
these are some of the finest muskets ever produced, congrats on finding it!
Welcome to the forum too, Red!

Richard.

[CopperRed]

Thank you Richard.   I spent the day reading over the British Militaria forum and the East India Company arms sub forum that Joe recommended.  There is so much great advice and history about these guns.    I'll work on taking the gun apart and taking pictures of anything I find that might help me figure out the history of this gun.  I"m excited, it's hard to believe I am holding a weapon that is 175 years old.   I've only seen them in glass cases in museum before this.    I'll be careful taking the barrel off and the other parts as I don't want to damage the stock on it.   

Thanks again
Red

[Pukka Bundook]

I am sure we are all looking forward to  hearing more on this piece, Red!
Do keep us posted!
At our annual shoot, we use these for the Percussion smoothbore match.
Very fine arms!

[mr. no gold]

Great find!!! As you have already heard, these don't show up too often. And, it appears to be in pretty darn good condition. The quality in construction sure stands out as is pretty typical for English arms. England and Japan seemed to have the best standard for metal work in historical terms; England for guns and blades and Japan for blades. The lesson here seems to be, don't stop looking in those markets. There must be more good things to find. Thank you for putting the photos up here for us to see and admire.
Dick

[CopperRed]

Thanks for all the great advice!   I took the lock off today and the barrel and found more markings.   It's amazing to me that I may be able to track down who and where the parts of the gun were produced and when.   

With the attached photos and notes below, do you think I can track down where and when it was produced?  I don't think I am using the right terminology but I'm pretty sure you will understand my notes

My observations:
1) 38 1/2 inch barrel
2) No Rifling
3) On side of lock it looks like there is a standing lion
4) On top of the barrel there is a Crown with a GP and below that a Crown with a V
5) On the barrel, near the nipple (?) is a K8 stamp, K8 is also stamped on the end of the barrel unseen unless you remove the barrel
6) On the nipple (?) is what looks like a J5
7) On the inside of the lock I see an M12 and it looks like the name J BRAZIR…
On the underside of the barrel, near the nipple (?) is stamped K6, a cursive L3 and below that a lower case nd, 2, P.  To the right of that is a cursive H with a 5 below that
9) At the very end of the barrel there is an “M” stamped in it, right below the tang(?) on the end of the barrel
10) At the other end of the barrel, where the bayonet clips in, it is one piece and not soldered in like some of the barrels I have seen

I tried to get the butt plate off but will need a finer screwdriver.   I had a narrow flat screwdriver but could tell I was about to to damage the screw head

Again thank you for the help and encouragement.   I've never fired a black powder rifle but watched live demos and can't wait to give this a try

Red

[Pukka Bundook]

Red,

How I wish I had more time to reply, but second cut hay waiting to be baled!
It's always so exciting to see one of these guns, so marked. (Not a rifle Red, its a gun or musket)
Somewhere I have the list of date codes.  You will find it also on Brit. Mil. Forums.
The lock was made by Joseph Brazier, in his "Ashes" Wloverhampton workshop.
Joseph Brazier was one of the very best lock makers in the mid 19th century.
The rest will have to wait, as I must run.
Do go back and check out the date codes on BMF.
The bayonet catch is for the type F bayonet. a very secure method of attachment, and Much easier to detach than the Ordnance Hanoverian type!...which was hard to detach, but would too often detach itself on firing!

Wish I could stay and answer some of your questions!

Richard.

[CopperRed]

Richard

Thank you!   That is great to hear about Joseph Brazier and his workshop.   I will go to the BMF site and start piecing together the rest of the history and report back my findings.   

Can't wait to learn the rest of the story. 

Sincerely
Red

[Pukka Bundook]

This old thread might get you started, Red;

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/viewtopic.php?p=14554#p14554

Above shows your lock was made by Brazier in the year 1847/8,  and the barrel was inspected in 1844/5, (H date code) and again in 1846/7.
Date codes are like tax years, not running with the calendar year.
Sorry, no time to look at you marks closely, but hope you can figure it out!
You will see marks of the percussioner, and I note you can see the 2nd proof marks under the breech, where the musket was second proofed using its own lock for ignition.

Very best,
Rich.