Author Topic: Need Wheellock 'Smith  (Read 942 times)

Offline emmagee

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Need Wheellock 'Smith
« on: September 01, 2024, 02:14:43 AM »
I have a Leonard Day built version of the John Alden wheellock carbine.

It needs a stronger dog spring. It does not exert enough force on the dog to produce a good spark, even without the pan cover. With the pan cover it doesn't produce a spark at all, unless you put additional force on the dog. In that case it works perfectly...

I know we have 'smiths here who are well-versed in wheellocks. I need mine fixed!

Harry




Offline PhDBrewer

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Re: Need Wheellock 'Smith
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2024, 04:19:01 AM »

Offline PhDBrewer

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Re: Need Wheellock 'Smith
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2024, 05:01:19 AM »
The cam on an original is narrower and longer to provide smaller contact area. The dog possibly should be modified slightly. The spring might just need to be annealed, reshaped to provide more preload, & re-hardened.
Leonard Day is a great builder. I still consider myself a novice. Smile.

William


Offline emmagee

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Re: Need Wheellock 'Smith
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2024, 05:12:43 AM »
Good thought.

Always try the simple solution first...

Offline PhDBrewer

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Re: Need Wheellock 'Smith
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2024, 05:18:34 AM »
A similar wheellock spring and the amount of "pre-load" to increase pressure in cock.


William

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Need Wheellock 'Smith
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2024, 09:26:59 PM »
I tried to fix one of those for a friend.  The parts were not fitted, sloppy, and  as cast.  The tumbler bound up because the bearing holes were not aligned. I machined  a whole new tumbler and repaired the bearing holes.  After, it sort of worked.   I could not make the pan cover did not jump out of the way as designed and still fire. To me, it looked like as cast parts that were not well fitted.  I think it was made to look at more than to shoot.   


Offline emmagee

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Re: Need Wheellock 'Smith
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2024, 09:57:37 PM »
That sounds like a Rifle Shoppe lock.

Now I have a Germanic pistol built from one of their kits by gunsmith unknown. However it functions perfectly. Wish I knew who built it. I bought the pistol from Track some years ago.

This one was made by Day and doesn't give that impression. It's quite well-fitted and finished. Only problem is the dog needs a stronger spring.

This lock has a helical spring rather than the leaf spring commonly found in wheellocks.

Offline emmagee

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Re: Need Wheellock 'Smith
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2024, 11:03:51 PM »
Well I just went out on the deck and ignited a half dozen or so pans full of powder. With a good pyrite it fires the powder just fine. The spark is weak though.

In addition to the dog spring it would also benefit from a new wheel. This one is a bit sloppy on the arbor and has too many serrations (?).

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Need Wheellock 'Smith
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2024, 09:39:35 PM »
I have never looked close at one of these locks but am assuming it has a serrated wheel like a cigarette lighter that's spring driven and the outer spring preloads the clamp holding the pyrite or flint.Wouldn't a balance between these springs be critical to the lock's function?
A feeble mind is curious ;D.
Bob Roller

Offline emmagee

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Re: Need Wheellock 'Smith
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2024, 10:16:31 PM »
Bob, That's exactly how it works. This one has more serrations than a Zippo. My other two have longitudinal grooves and they spark better. Of course the spark comes off the pyrite rather than the wheel.

The core problem with this one is the dog spring doesn't exert enough force on the dog to produce enough sparks. I also think it would benefit from a new wheel....

Offline PhDBrewer

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Re: Need Wheellock 'Smith
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2024, 10:24:42 PM »
"Wouldn't a balance between these springs be critical to the lock's function?"
No. Each spring spring works within it's own environment.  The wheel spring rotates the wheel approx. 75 degrees before the pan cover opens. The wheel spring need to release enough energy to accelerate the wheel to "sparking" speed with this amount of rotation.
The cock spring applies pressure to the pyrite (NEVER FLINT!) which drops onto the spinning wheel once the pan cover opens. The cock spring has to have enough energy to hold the pyrite firmly to allow the wheel to shear off pieces of the pyrite.
Two separate operations. Each spring needs to store enough energy to do its specific function.
Pyrite creates sparks from a strike differently from flint. When pyrite is struck, tiny flecks of the pyrite are sheared off and instantly react with oxygen in the air, creating a hot spark. The wheel is designed to act upon pyrite, not flint. Flint will just ruin the wheel.
Flint creates sparks because it shears off steel from the frizzen face and the force exerted on the tiny bit of steel heat it up enough to glow & burn. What we observe is a spark. Well, sparks... as many little pieces are flying around & glowing from the impact.
With a wheellock - sparks are pieces of the pyrite burning up.
With a flintlock - sparks are pieces of the frizzen burning up.

William

Offline PhDBrewer

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Re: Need Wheellock 'Smith
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2024, 07:12:07 AM »
If Leonard made the wheel with "more serrations than a Zippo" ...
I am wondering if he intended one to use Ferrocerium rods instead?
I have almost always seen the "grooved" wheels with a couple serrations cut perpendicular, to be the historic modus operandi.
Other builders have had good success with Ferrocerium specific exchangeable wheels. One for each style.
Dennis Priddy built one (georgeous!) And made 2 different wheels.



William

Offline emmagee

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Re: Need Wheellock 'Smith
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2024, 02:31:05 PM »
That makes sense.

I plan on using pyrite though...it would be nice to be able to use both.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Need Wheellock 'Smith
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2024, 06:52:40 PM »
Let's see some pictures of the mechanism.
Bob Roller

Offline emmagee

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Re: Need Wheellock 'Smith
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2024, 03:09:03 AM »
Bob, some pictures. I apologize for not having done this sooner....








Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Need Wheellock 'Smith
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2024, 04:05:36 AM »
I am no expert when it comes to wheellocks, but I built a successful one using a great little book by Georg Fauber called "How to Build your own wheellock rifle or pistol".  It took me a month of 10 - 12 hour days to make the lock, cutting each piece with saw and file and turning the screws on a small home-made lathe built by my dad.  But the springs, especially the dog spring (subject of this thread) and the mainspring, are heavy strong springs.  The dog spring in particular puts a lot of pressure on the foot of the dog, pressing the pyrite down hard on the wheel.  Even so, my pistol does not work well with pyrite, a weak spark at best, so I made a second wheel with no cross cuts.  On this wheel, I use a piece of flint, and it produces lots of sparks making the pistol work fine almost every time.  I have read that on original locks, the wheel was rotated 7/8 of a turn to engage the sear, and that the dog was forced upon the already spinning wheel when the trigger was pulled, and the pan cover kicked out of the way.  I have watched videos of a polish wheellock maker whose name escapes me, and his locks throw sparks like a cutting torch, but his springs are powderful and thick.
In the case of the lock in question here, I would suggest that the dog spring be heated red, spread to increase initial load,, re-hardened and re-tempered.  the only thing that remains is whether the coil mainspring has enough strength to keep the wheel revolving against the tension of the dog.
With a lock like this, it would be easy to run into a complete re-build which is a huge job, and an uncertain outcome.
Here's a few images of the lock I made...compare the spring weight to those of the subject lock.












With deference to William, I agree that flint is a poor choice because of the wear it puts on the wheel, but this pistol has been used so little, and hasn't much worry from overuse in the future, the flint and wheel will work out just fine.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline emmagee

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Re: Need Wheellock 'Smith
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2024, 04:30:10 AM »
I thought about the mainspring...so I applied pressure to the dog and it worked as it should. So I am reasonably sure that a stronger dog spring will solve the problem.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Need Wheellock 'Smith
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2024, 06:02:02 AM »
The pistol lock Taylor showed is mounted on a pistol. Ignition is seemingly instantaneous with the set trigger. It feels like a CF pistol. I know where-of I speak.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Need Wheellock 'Smith
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2024, 06:32:42 PM »
I would now get tired making the top jaw screw,Doing all that work with a Whacksaw and files is indeed dedication to the job.
Bob Roller

Offline emmagee

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Re: Need Wheellock 'Smith
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2024, 06:38:26 PM »
Oh, I've seen that lock....and the pistol to which it is mounted.

Beautiful workmanship. Just beautiful.