Author Topic: A New Pistol by Moses Dickson of Louisville, Kentucky  (Read 940 times)

Offline Tanselman

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1624
A New Pistol by Moses Dickson of Louisville, Kentucky
« on: September 29, 2024, 05:05:04 AM »
Perhaps some of you saw this little pistol for sale recently on another web site. I collect Kentucky, so I grabbed it when I saw it, since it is clearly marked "M. Dickson" on one side and "Louisville" on the other. Moses Dickson was Louisville's best known and most important gunsmith during his working days there. He was born in Kentucky in 1799 and began working as a gunsmith about 1820, probably in Louisville. In 1822 he sold part of his inheritance and purchased a business location, i.e. store, in Louisville on the west side of 3rd Street between Main and Market Streets, where he worked as a gunsmith until his death in 1863. His earliest rifles are marked "M. Dickson Louisville Ky," but in about 1834 he took on a partner, fellow Kentuckian and experienced gunsmith James Gilmore, and together they built the largest gun and sporting goods store in Louisville. Partnership guns were marked "M. Dickson & J. Gilmore," at times with "Louisville, Ky" after it. The business was known to import eastern parts for their rifles and sell parts to local gunsmiths, and eventually they imported complete firearms from Europe, marking them with the partnership name when received for resale.

This little screw-barrel pistol has a brass barrel and frame with walnut grip. Length is 6-7/8 inches and barrel section is 2-3/8 inches with a .44 caliber smooth bore. The front side of the frame is engraved "Louisville" and the rear is engraved "M. Dickson." The flint ignition and single name indicates a pre-partnership gun, probably imported sometime before 1834... and being flint, I'd guess late 1820s. The bottom of the barrel has several proof marks.

My primary reason for posting, other than sharing the pistol with others who may appreciate it, is to:

1. get opinions on when it was made,
2. find out what the proof marks indicate about the gun's origin,
3. opinions on whether Dickson just engraved his name & location or did all the engraving. 

Your thoughts and comments will be appreciated. If you'd like to learn more about Dickson or Gilmore, you can find it at www.kentuckygunmakers.com.

Shelby Gallien   












« Last Edit: October 09, 2024, 04:19:13 AM by Tanselman »

Offline Justin Urbantas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1394
Re: A New Toy by Moses Dickson of Louisville, Kentucky
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2024, 05:57:07 AM »
Very interesting.  I would've sworn it was an English pistol. They're pretty clever.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6992
Re: A New Pistol oy by Moses Dickson of Louisville, Kentucky
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2024, 02:33:39 PM »
Hi Shelby,
The proof marks on the barrel appear to be Birmingham proofs, which dates the pistol after 1813.  Given Dickson's work history, I suspect the pistol dates from the late 1820s or maybe even the 1830s.  These little turn off pocket pistols were imported by the thousands and resold in America.  The engraving is coarse so it could be American, however, it is also possible the retailer could order Birmingham makers to engrave his name and place before shipping the pistol. I don't believe it was required by British law to proof gun barrels for export but proofing might be demanded by the importer as an expected indicator of British quality.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline JV Puleo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 929
Re: A New Pistol oy by Moses Dickson of Louisville, Kentucky
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2024, 04:57:28 PM »
An imported, inexpensive Birmingham-made screw barrel pistol. I can't say I've ever seen a Kentucky marking before...while the pistol isn't rare the marking certainly is.
These were customarily supplied with the place for the "maker" and address left blank. Virtually all of them were made in Birmingham, regardless of the name on them.

As a further to the above, it would be wonderful to be able to identify who actually made them. The manufacture of these box lock pistols, in the huge quantities that still exist, would have required all sorts of specialized tools and fixtures. I strongly suspect that there were only a few makers and their output was supplied to the trade. They do not seem to have advertised and that wouldn't have been required if they were trade suppliers. They may even have wished to stay in the background since they wouldn't have wanted to appear in competition with their customers. Thus far I don't think anyone has identified the real makers.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2024, 05:04:58 PM by JV Puleo »

Offline bama

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2166
    • Calvary Longrifles
Re: A New Pistol oy by Moses Dickson of Louisville, Kentucky
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2024, 08:49:19 PM »
Shelby, I know very little about these pistols but I do know a little about engraving. I speculate that the engraving on the side plates of this pistol was cast in, with the location for the name and location left blank. The balance of the pistol appears to be hand engraved. The quality of this engraving is of better quality than the engraving of the name and location and the cast in engraving. So your Kentucky builder, probably did or had the name and location engraved.

Jim
Jim Parker

"An Honest Man is worth his weight in Gold"

Offline Dave Peelgren

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19
Re: A New Pistol oy by Moses Dickson of Louisville, Kentucky
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2024, 09:43:52 PM »
I have what looks like the same make but marked Gill & Parker


Offline Tanselman

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: A New Pistol oy by Moses Dickson of Louisville, Kentucky
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2024, 01:48:55 AM »
Dave, your pistol looks very similar, just a couple small differences, probably from the finishing and/or assembly operation. The most obvious one is the small plate with screw on your pistol just behind the cock, while mine has nothing there. But overall, they look like the same gun, same shop. Your markings on the side plate are very different from those on my pistol, suggesting to me the pistols were made with no engraving, and rather quickly engraved with borders, etc., in that area before shipping, or by the retailer when received. Since your gun is so similar but has different engraving pattern, I'd guess someone was doing a fast job on each pistol.

Jim, I went over all the engraving, particularly on the side panels, that you suggested might have been cast in place. Under a 10X eye loop, all the engraving looks hand-cut to me, with all the little nicks and edges, particularly small "steps" in the curves, expected of hand-cutting. For a lower grade export pistol, I doubt the maker would have made the effort to retain all the little cutting marks in his many similar castings, and at best only traces of them would be present if cast. I tend to think all the engraving is hand-cut. The engraving on the sides of the frame are pretty basic gouge cuts with a few accent lines, not the work of a high-class firearm... but good enough to embellish a lower grade pistol.

Shelby Gallien 

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6992
Re: A New Pistol oy by Moses Dickson of Louisville, Kentucky
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2024, 03:41:17 AM »
Hi Shelby,
I urge you to listen to what I and Joe Puleo wrote. 

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Tanselman

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: A New Pistol oy by Moses Dickson of Louisville, Kentucky
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2024, 05:02:22 AM »
Smart Dog, you lost me there with your last comment. What have I missed in what you and Joe wrote? Your comments were appreciated, as were others. I revisited your comments and do not understand what was overlooked or missed in them. Can you help me there?

Shelby Gallien

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6992
Re: A New Pistol oy by Moses Dickson of Louisville, Kentucky
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2024, 05:21:31 AM »
Hi Shelby,
You asked about the engraving.  It is not likely cast in.  Rather it was cut by Birmingham engravers to a standard and rather crude pattern. As Joe wrote, blank spaces were left for the retailer's name and location. 

dave 
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Tanselman

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: A New Pistol oy by Moses Dickson of Louisville, Kentucky
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2024, 06:22:27 AM »
Dave,
 
Thank you for the response, and not being irritated by my question. I thought you guys were correct in your assessments since the engraving looked hand-cut to me. But when another well-respected builder/restorer suggested the cruder engraving on the side panels might be cast in place; it left two opposing thoughts "floating around" for our readers. I thought a quick check of the panel engraving with a 10X loop would provide a "verified" response for the readers... and myself to some extent since I haven't studied these little import pistols before. In fact, I never would have looked at this one except for the Kentucky name on it. So, you and Joe were spot on... and we've also answered a question raised by one of our members and perhaps in the minds of a few others.

Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: October 01, 2024, 09:35:40 PM by Tanselman »

Offline bama

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2166
    • Calvary Longrifles
Re: A New Pistol oy by Moses Dickson of Louisville, Kentucky
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2024, 06:29:00 PM »
Hi Shelby, I don't know for a fact the the side plates are cast in engraving. I have recut some engraving that was cast in, to me the engraving on the side plates reminds me of that cast in engraving. This may not be the case in this instance. I do think that there was more than one engraver, the the engraved lettering is not cut nearly as deep as the engraving that is on the side plates. The side plate engraving is very deep and a little crude. The floral engraving on the top of the receiver was cut by an experienced engraver. Compared to the engraving on the side plates, I don't believe that it was cut by the same hand. So if it was all hand cut, then there were probably three engravers. Regardless, it is a nice piece of our southern history and congratulations to you for acquiring it. I didn't mean to cause any descent, just trying to answer your question about the engraving.

Jim
Jim Parker

"An Honest Man is worth his weight in Gold"

Offline Tanselman

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: A New Pistol oy by Moses Dickson of Louisville, Kentucky
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2024, 04:26:12 AM »
A follow-up to the above discussions about engraving... I compared the engraved words "Louisville" and "M. Dickson" with several other signed guns and locks by Moses Dickson, and it absolutely is his engraving on those two words. Supports the comment that the basic engraving was done in Birmingham with small areas left open for the purchaser to add a name/location, and that's exactly what Moses Dickson did.

Shelby Gallien

Offline Dave Peelgren

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19
Re: A New Pistol oy by Moses Dickson of Louisville, Kentucky
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2024, 11:05:00 PM »
Tanselman sorry for not getting back to you. That piece of brass is a sliding safety and the little brass ball is just there to push it forward. When I got the gun it was missing and the main spring was broke I wasn’t sure what it looked like so I just winged it. The main spring was a pain but it works. The other side sases London. Thanks for your reply Dave P.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6992
Re: A New Pistol oy by Moses Dickson of Louisville, Kentucky
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2024, 01:25:36 AM »
Hi Shelby,
I took no offense at your question to me.  I never am offended when someone asks me to clarify or support my comment. Joe Puleo is very familiar with the 18th and early 19th century British gun trade having published journal papers about the trade and particularly, the Ketland family.  I spend a lot of time examining British work from the same period, researching their history and styling, and then recreating a wide range of British guns paying attention to every historical detail I can including the engraving. Here is an example somewhat in the same vein as your pocket pistol only 90 years earlier.

 https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=82606.0

At the time your pistol was made, Birmingham produced more firearms than any city in the world. At one time almost 20% of the total work force in Birmingham was involved in some way with the gun trade.  There still is a section of the city called "the Gun Quarter".  Sadly, only gunmaker Westley Richards remains today.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."