Santa Fe Trip

[Herb]

Wow, what wonderful detail!  I've taken Muzzleloader Magazine for years but do not remember this issue. I'll find it.  Jeff told me these details, but how nice to have them posted here!  Thanks!  Herb

[Dan'l 1946]

I wonder if this was originally a flintlock? The lock profile right in front of the drum takes an odd---to me anyway---dip towards the drum.  And there appears to be a straight horizontal line below the same area. Dan

[Dphariss]

I wonder if this was originally a flintlock? The lock profile right in front of the drum takes an odd---to me anyway---dip towards the drum.  And there appears to be a straight horizontal line below the same area. Dan

Two things occur to me. One its a restock. The key way in the bottom of the barrel is a good clue. As is the mortise in the signature.
Two it was a FL for most of its life. Not enough breech corrosion to have been used extensively as a percussion or it was very well cared for or not used much as a percussion.
The hogged out lock inlet is another clue. But this could be the result of the replacement percussion lock being installed. It appears to be a nice quality lock too.
But many broken rifles were restocked in the west or by a blacksmith.
Great rifle in any event, with historical provenance.
Wish Santa Fe was closer.

[smylee grouch]

A trip to the Gordon Museum would be a trek for some but there is the three vol. set of books that Jim wrote with a gazilion pictures. Not as good as being there but still might be worth having. The museum itself         is about half mile off the Interstate exit so if your driving by it is'nt a real problem in that respect.

[albert]

Herb , you still look the same as when you stopped by my place in N.E.MO. 15-20 years ago,  if you ever pass close by , let me know ahead of time . Always try to follow up on your journeys.

[Herb]

Thanks, Albert.  I enjoyed visiting with you and always enjoy your postings and builds. 

[borderdogs]

I was sick with Covid when this was posted so I only just read this thread. I like building plains rifles too so when Herb posts something I take notice. Very interesting information on Beckwourths's rifle and I love the pictures. I have a question on Beckwourths rifle was the rifle made by Hawken?
Rob

[Herb]

I think Jeff Hengesbaugh's research indicates that this was the start of the Hawken rifle.  So I think the answer is yes.

[borderdogs]

Thanks Herb
Rob

[borderdogs]

The write up on the rifle is very interesting I am no expert but does a drum positioned like it is on that rifle indicate a conversion from flint? I find the trigger guard interesting too the way the finger spur is riveted to the guard. I haven't seen a lot of original Hawkens in person but is a finger spur with rivets something that has been seen on other period plains rifles?
Rob

[Herb]

Jeff has a drawing of the drum screwed into the barrel in the center of the threaded plug. The plug scales out to 1.35 inches long.  I don't know how that works.  There had to be a groove filed into the plug face back to the drum hole. If it worked for that, it would have worked for a flint flash hole.  Jeff has had the plug out, but it seems strange to me.

There were Hawkens with spurred trigger guards.  There is an S.Hawken that is a brass mounted plains rifle.  It was in the Cody Firearms Museum, but it was not out for my inspection when I asked to see all their Hawkens.  This was in December 2018 when all the exhibits were down for remodeling.  It is in Jim Gordon's book on page 390.

The Hawken "sporting rifles" had spurred trigger guards. 

Other "Plains Rifles" with spurred guards were made by Dimick, Gemmer, L.N. Nutz of St. Louis, and Hoffman.

Of course, when the Beckwourth rifle was built, there was no "Hawken" rifle as we now know them.  Jeff's theory is that this was the beginning of them.

[Craig Wilcox]

Herb, thank you for all the details on that Beckworth rifle.  Almost enough info to make a bench copy!

The picture of you holding the rifle really makes it seem large.  Nice detailed pictures all the way through your comment, and they do help to clarify this rifle well.  Interesting that it seems to be the piece that inspired the line of Hawken rifles.

I got a Thompson Center "Hawken" kit, un-opened this past week.  Looking at the kit, your pictures really made it clear that a LOT of modifying MAY make it appear, at a distance, of actually being even a copy of a real J. Hawken or J. & S. Hawken.  Especially if you leave your spectacles behind.

But, I will have fun both assembling/modifying, and shooting this one.  First thing will be to replace that terrible lock with something better.  LR RPL looks like the ticket.

[borderdogs]

Thanks Herb. I built a full stock percussion light plains rifle from Don Stiths parts set. The trigger guard in the set had a finger spur. Don told me it was a pattern that was copied from an original. I ended up not using that guard because I wanted to use another guard that I got from the Hawken Shop that was similar. The difference between the two guards was the one Don had was installed with pins and used a short bar set trigger. I wanted to use a long bar trigger and a guard with a threaded stud. The guards were virtually except that the one from the Hawken Shop was a little wider. I thought the riveted spur an interesting feature. Its also interesting that there was no toe plate on the Beckwourth rifle.
Rob

[Herb]

Maltby of Galena, IL had a spurred trigger guard, so did Creamer (with a back-action lock).  I doubt any of these were riveted.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Rob:  I appreciate your enthusiasm for your new found T/C "Hawken" project.  Reworking that rifle will only improve it's appearance.  As a stock factory rifle you have to look at a T/C rifle through either one of these three media, in order to conclude that it resembles an original Hawken rifle:  First, through a deer skin, second, through a sheet of carbon paper, and finally, using a welder's mask.  I've held this predudice since Thompson/Centre advertised their repro rifles as Hawken rifles, since the early 70's.  Even so, my first muzzleloading rifle was a T/C "Hawken" in flint.  And I used it to kill a ton of deer over ten or fifteen years, back then.

[dadybear1]

LAST DOOR TO HEAVEN!!!!  THANKS

[Curmudgeon]

I got a chance to see the Beckwourth rifle a few weeks ago.  My initial impression was its stoutness and nice balance despite the length of pull.  I'm not sure, but it definitely looked like a cap conversion.  The barrel was either not finished well when made or it had a hard life.  Many artifacts on the barrel looked like hammer marks and not-quite-finished file work.  AND it had a slight swamp measured with a caliper. I hope get a better understanding of what forging looks like someday.  1-48 twist down the hole.

[Notchy Bob]

I realize this is an old thread.  Apologies to those who might be offended.

Anyway, I have a strictly academic question concerning the Tom Tobin/Toben Hawken, which I believe is in Mr. Gordon's museum.  Is it marked J&S Hawken, or S. Hawken? 

Supposedly, based on a statement in James Perkins' Tom Tobin:  Frontiersman (p. 32), Tom bought the rifle directly from the Hawken shop on a trip to St. Louis in 1844, which I believe would be during the period when the J&S stamp was used (Jacob died in the cholera epidemic of 1849).  However, I don't recall seeing anyone mention how the barrel is actually marked.  I don't own Mr. Gordon's book, but I have seen the images that are in it, and I can't make out much other than St. Louis.  Most people prefer to focus on the twelve "notches" cut into the side of the barrel rather than the maker's mark.  In his article, My Hunt For the Tom Toben Rifle, Col. Goodwin also neglected that detail, but he did note that the rifle had a "late Hawken" triggerguard.  I would think of "late" as post-1849, but I don't claim to be an expert.

Just curious, in case anyone knows.

Thanks,

Notchy Bob

[Notchy Bob]

Well... I should have looked a little harder.  I just turned the last stone, and found this on some fellow's Facebook page:



I don't have a Facebook account but I was able to snag this photo, which reportedly shows the placard that is with the Tobin rifle in Mr. Gordon's museum.  The fellow who posted it does not appear to be a "gun guy," but just a tourist who happened upon Mr. Gordon's museum.  In any event, the placard states Tobin's Hawken is marked J&S.

Notchy Bob