Author Topic: Santa Fe Trip  (Read 5767 times)

Offline Herb

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Santa Fe Trip
« on: December 19, 2021, 10:18:39 PM »
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Herb

Offline Daniel Coats

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2021, 11:26:06 PM »
Huh?
Dan

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Online Dave Marsh

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2021, 11:33:22 PM »
I guess it wasn't a real exciting trip!!!   ::)
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Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2021, 12:21:59 AM »
Herb, did you get to see Carson's Hawken rifle at the Masonic Lodge while in Santa Fe? Getting too see and handle that is worth the trip in and of itself.
Dick

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2021, 12:22:34 AM »
Herb, were you going down to Glorieta too?

Offline RAT

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2021, 01:21:42 AM »
Actually Herb... I dig it!

I dozed off just reading it!
Bob

Offline Herb

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2021, 01:27:40 AM »
I couldn't get the photos added in.  I'll try a different method now.  Carney and I drove 1,430 miles in my 2013 Park Avenue Buick Dec.6 through the 9th, got home just as the heavy snow started.  Here are some of the Hawkens in Jim Gordon's museum in Glorieta, NM.  You can left click twice to enlarge.
  Some of the Hawkens are second from left.  I think there are four rooms of guns like this.  The Modena Hawken, Tom Tobin's Hawken and the Ruxton rifle are some well-known ones on display. 

Two of the three known pistol grip Hawkens.  I measured the top bore as .570 and the bottom one as .530.  The third rifle is in the Cody museum and I measured that bore as .530 actual.  I posted about it on this forum.

We went to the Lodge and I checked measurements Phil Meek and Bob took in December,2019.  I couldn't make the trip because of a blizzard.  Here is the rifle compared to an enlarged photo of it from Jim Gordon's book, with his permission.  The photo is exact size, the rifle is closer and looks larger.  I had a photo taken of me with the rifle, but the operator failed and didn't get it.  Sigh.

Here are Jeff and Carney with mountain man Jim Beckwourth's rifle.  He engraved his name on the bottom flat.  He was a mulatto who lived with the Crow Indians as a chief.  Jeff is preparing an article for publication about this rifle's place in history.  He is willing to discuss this rifle with serious students, if you want to contact him, PM me and I'll get that to Jeff.  He wants me to make a bench copy of this rifle.  I'll have to hand make most of the furniture and have a custom barrel cut.

Me with the rifle.

The rawhide repair on the wrist.  (Left-click twice to enlarge).

Herb

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2021, 06:26:27 AM »
Herb, I gather from your photos and commentary that you did not see the Carson rifle. You also neglected to mention that Jims' museum at Glorietta has a whole lot more than just Hawken Rifles. He has guns from the F & I War I through the late 1800s'. It is worth anyone's time to contact him and arrange a visit. He is a most accomodating fellow. To my tastes once you have seen a Hawken, you have pretty much see them all. But, they are still a staple of the old West, so worth looking at.
Dick     

Offline Herb

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2021, 06:46:13 AM »
Yes, we saw, handled, measured and photographed the Kit Carson Hawken at the Masonic Lodge.  My photo of the room in Gordon's museum shows a few of his rifles.  He has hundreds of them of many different schools and makers.  He has a little room full of BB air rifles, dozens of them.
Herb

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2021, 06:51:57 AM »
Yeah!!! Way to go Herb. Glad that you saw the Carson. It is a story unto itself. That is one gun that I really like. And, by the way, Hawkens are like John
Armstrong rifles of Marykand. He made one gun dozens of time, but they sell for high five figures when you can find one; just like a Hawken.
Thanks, Dick

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2021, 03:42:48 PM »
Herb,

Thank you for posting the museum photos.

It is wonderful to see that some of America's heritage is being preserved for future generations to appreciate. Unfortunately, many today have absolutely no idea of the history of our country.

Kent
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Herb

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2021, 03:33:00 AM »
I have built longrifles from 15 to 20 different schools.  Fullstock, halfstock, flint, percussion, .36 to .58, right handed, left handed, from the stick or inletted stocks.  A Hawken pistol.  Bench copies, copies or full custom.  You go into Gordon's museum and there is sensory overload.  There is only so much time to look, and I prefer to build Hawkens, for the most part.  Here are a few pictures of other rifles.

You can left-click twice to enlarge a photo.


















Herb

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2021, 04:12:40 AM »
Nice collection of photos Herb. The last time I was there ( Feb, 2020 ) Jim told me he had over a thousand guns in the museum. A lot of guns by the big time makers of the early west and fur trade. Sensory overload might be an understatement. Along with all the guns there is so much more of the early west there to see. For me it is more impressive than Cody because of all the muzzleloaders and other period items. JMHO

Offline Carney Pace

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2021, 11:17:44 PM »
My 2 cents worth.
Walk in the door you are confronted by a 1878 Gatling gun on tripod mount and it just gets better from there.
The only known ( for want of my lack  of intelligence) Lancaster that is fully Iron mounted. Left handed J.J. Henry American pattern. Russel, I. Wilson knives (several bushels) many other makers from relics to as new.
I am going to correct Herb on the  BB guns probably close to 150.
Wheellocks, Matchlocks, Colt revolvers of many different models.
Hunting pouches with accouterments still there, fabulous horns.
Cased pistol sets, rifles and shotguns.
Indian artifacts and original Western art work.
Know if I can get as smart as Herb I will also post pictures, Analog in a Digital age.

Carney

Offline Mark H

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2021, 12:06:43 AM »
Thank you for the report of your trip. Amazing collection!

Offline ScottH

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2021, 02:27:54 AM »
Herb
Thanks for the wonderful bunch of pictures. I hope to visit one day.

Couple of questions. On the full stock rifle that was Jim Beckwourth's, does it have a straight non tapered barrel? A swamped barrel? Or a tapered barrel? Is there a Dimick rifle or two in the collection at Jim's museum?

Scott

Offline Herb

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2021, 03:05:56 AM »
The Beckwourth rifle barrel is 1.20 ahead of the powder drum and 1.10 at the muzzle, a straight taper.  It is 39 7/8 inches long ahead of the drum, which is basically screwed into the breech plug.  Total barrel length is 40 3/8".  I did not have time to look at all the rifles.  Jim Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West" Volume III has photos of Dimick rifles he owns.  Eight plains rifles, one carbine, a rifle/shotgun, three double barreled shotguns and five caplock pistols.
Herb

Offline Kmcmichael

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2021, 03:08:35 AM »
What are the specs on the Beckworth rifle?

Offline WaterFowl

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2021, 05:21:05 AM »
If I ever get back to New Mexico  ..this is stop # 1.

I agree way better than the Cody Museum in terms of muzzleloaders.

Thank you and Herb,

How can one man acquire so many artifacts...???????????????????

Offline JTR

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2021, 05:46:55 AM »
How can one man acquire so many artifacts...???????????????????

$$$$$$$$$$$$$, and then some more $$$$$$$$$
;-)
John Robbins

Offline Daryl

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2021, 06:27:01 AM »
WOW - just ------WOW! :o
Daryl

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Offline Herb

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2021, 08:56:14 AM »
What are the specs on the Beckworth rifle?

It is .56 caliber as I measured with my bore gauges.  A few light rust spots in the bore, but I did not have cleaning rod sections long enough to reach the breech.  Muzzle is relieved to .580 for perhaps 3/8 of an inch, then in an inch or so (I'm guessing) chokes down to .560 for nine inches according to Jeff's measurements, then opens up to .570 back to the breech plug.  Seven lands and grooves and one in 48 inch twist.  I'll have to get a custom barrel cut .560, then spend a day lead lapping in the bottom .570.  Relieving the muzzle will be easy.  Has a drum screwed into the last 1/2 inch of the barrel, right into the breech plug.  Jeff says the rifle was originally flintlock with only one lock bolt.  Wants copy to be  built as a flintlock.  Tang is parallel sided, 4.2" long and .454" wide, square back end, two wood screws.  Trigger plate is 4.3" long, held in place with wood screws through trigger guard.

Trigger reach is 14 inches to the front trigger.  The ram rod is 41 inches long, .470 at muzzle, no cap on front  end, reduces to 3/8 inch after 16 inches, then tapers down to a concealed ball puller in a .32 cap 1.7 inches long.  Two piece riveted butt plate.  Trigger guard has riveted and soldered spurs, is 8.9" long. One wood screw holds it at the rear, two wood screw hold the front tang through the trigger plate.   Pitch is nine inches down at the muzzle when the butt plate sits level on the floor and the tang hump is against a vertical wall.  There is no toe plate.  Don't know the weight.

Rear sight is a buckhorn style with the shelf .515 inch above the barrel and a very small notch .  The front sight is .145 inch high, I don't know how he could see it or how he aimed with it.  The rod pipes are .520 ID front and .500 ID rear.  The entry pipe is .500 inside diameter, made of two pieces brazed (?) together with copper.  Jim Beckwourth engraved or chiseled his name in the bottom flat near the breech and filled the engraving with lead.
Herb

Offline Carney Pace

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2022, 08:18:46 PM »
second rifle down is a Lancaster County rifle all Iron mounted

St. Louis horn

St. Louis Horn

M.L. Rood American Bowie Denver, CO

English Woodhead  Bowie mother of pearl scales

Confederate Mountain Howitzer used at Battle of Gloriette Pass

Down the bore

One of MANY Horn and bag sets

Ivory handled Bowie with silver sheath

Just a fews things I found interesting on Herb and my trip to New Mexico

Offline Roger B

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2022, 09:58:13 PM »
Let me know if you come back up & I'll buy you dinner! I'm in Santa Fe. I spent 10yrs in Utah & really miss it.
Roger B.
Never underestimate the sheer destructive power of a minimally skilled, but highly motivated man with tools.

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Santa Fe Trip
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2022, 12:10:50 PM »
This is a link to an older write up about the Beckwurth gun.
The owner had a few youtube videos about it too as I recall.
T. Albert

https://www.muzzleloadermagazine.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=14
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