Best factory rifle or kit for first rifle?

[Martin_G]

Hello everyone!


I am new to muzzleloading and to muzzleloading themed forums. So far I haven't bought any rifles or kits. Right now I'm trying to educate myself on some of the different styles used in the U.S. from about the early 1830's to mid 1850's. I especially like the half or full stock Hawken type rifle .

There are two rifles that I'm an interested in buying. One of them is a Thompson-Center Hawken in 54 caliber 1-48" twist (factory built, not a kit), while the second is a Lyman Great Plains rifle kit.

The Lyman is also a 54 caliber but the twist is a 1-60" . From what I have read I would probably be better off with a fast twist as used on the GP Hunter which is 1-32" . This kit is about 10 years old and has never been built.

I'm leaning towards the Lyman (due to lower cost) but I don't know how they rate quality wise. If its possible I would like to change the furniture over to brass or silver but I don't know if it can be done. While the steel furniture is authentic I do like the way brass accents the overall rifle.

I would be using either rifle for hunting, and I would like to use minie ball or sabot rather than round ball.

Regarding the T/C Hawken, I read somewhere that the rifle isn't faithful to the Hawken design. Is there any truth to this?

I'd appreciate hearing about the pros & cons of either rifle, and I'm open to suggestions for other first time rifles or kits.

I do have some experience with wood finishing and limited experience with metal finishing.



Thanks,

Martin

[Jerry V Lape]

Martin,

I am not going to address your rifle specific questions as much as the learning process you need.  The commercial Hawkins are not to be mistaken for accurate reproductions of the original plains style muzzleloaders.  If you want to use one to learn muzzleloading either will work.  I have no idea why you have chosen minie balls over round balls.  The roundball at muzzleloading range is actually an extremely effective game getter.  Go read the comments about minie balls on the discussion of .50 adequate for moose which is still active on this site. 

Before you buy any rifle I suggest you contact a local muzzleloading group and go to some of their activities to learn about muzzleloading.  All new users need to be mentored a bit to learn safety procedures, and how to manage their rifles.  It isn't anything like buying a modern rifle and stuffing a few rounds of factory ammo in for zeroing.  They are primitive firearms and require special safety considerations not intuitively apparent to beginners.  And the group will give you an opportunity to try several types of firearms to learn what suits you best.  Just tell the folks on here where you live and you will probably find nearby help.

[J.D.]

Either the Lyman or the TC are good quality pieces that will give you years of good service.

As to a production gun that is faithful to the original design, there really aren't any production guns, in that price range, that are faithful to the originals. However, the Lyman Great Plains rifle is closer than the TC.

I'm not aware of of any drop in components to retrofit the steel furniture to brass or silver. You might order Track of the Wolf's catalog to compare the furniture on either piece to the life size illustrations in the catalog.

I'm curious as to why you want to use conicals for hunting? In my experience, the round ball will do anything necessary, and more, in taking game cleanly. I have known more than a few people, who bought ML rifles to extend their hunting season, only to put their guns away after firing a few heavy loads under heavy conicals. The recoil was more than they could stand...and these boys weren't 90 pound weaklings.

IMHO, the penchant for shooting conicals, to improve whatever, is function of marketing hype designed to sell you something that you don't really need, under the guise of an "improvement".

In my experience, shooting the heavy conicals is more of a pain than anything else. They are also more expensive to shoot. They inflict heavy recoil on the shooter, burn out nipples rather quickly, and they aren't really the improvement that they are hyped to be.

Shooting round balls is more fun, just plain fun. Moreover, round balls are more accurate than conicals, less expensive in the price of lead, powder, and nipples, and much easier on the shoulder.

In the end, it's your choice. I suggest that you find local ML club to find a mentor in shooting these old guns. I'm sure there will be some there that will let you shoot his ML rifle with hunting loads with conicals and round ball. I think you will quickly
see the difference.

Jerry is right about safety issues related to ML shooting. There is a learning curve, and that curve can be flattened rather quickly by joining a local ML club.
God bless

[rich pierce]

Agree, both are good choices for a beginner, round balls are better.   I'd ignore the stuff you read in modern-oriented hunting magazines, which are shills for the production gun makers, and ignore the advertising of either the TC or the Lyman guns which indicate they are related to original plains rifles.  They are related, but maybe in the way that the runt of a littler is related to the boss dog.  Both rifles were intended to appeal to cross-over hunters who would buy a ML for hunting deer in a special season if it weighed and handled kind of like a modern gun.  That doesn't make them bad guns; on the contrary they are reliable and accurate and well priced for what you get.  But hand a blind man an original Hawken plains rifle and a TC or Lyman GPR and he'll tell you immediately which one is the original, because it will weigh 3 pounds more, be longer, and be much more muzzle heavy.

[Roger Fisher]

Martin,

I am not going to address your rifle specific questions as much as the learning process you need.  The commercial Hawkins are not to be mistaken for accurate reproductions of the original plains style muzzleloaders.  If you want to use one to learn muzzleloading either will work.  I have no idea why you have chosen minie balls over round balls.  The roundball at muzzleloading range is actually an extremely effective game getter.  Go read the comments about minie balls on the discussion of .50 adequate for moose which is still active on this site. 

Before you buy any rifle I suggest you contact a local muzzleloading group and go to some of their activities to learn about muzzleloading.  All new users need to be mentored a bit to learn safety procedures, and how to manage their rifles.  It isn't anything like buying a modern rifle and stuffing a few rounds of factory ammo in for zeroing.  They are primitive firearms and require special safety considerations not intuitively apparent to beginners.  And the group will give you an opportunity to try several types of firearms to learn what suits you best.  Just tell the folks on here where you live and you will probably find nearby help.

What Jerry said!  And please read it again!

[keweenaw]

If you want to see accurate reproductions, available as much work kits, of original Hawken rifles see Don Stith's site. http://www.donstith.com/hawken_squirrel.html    I would not advise starting with one of Don's kits for a first project.  That's not because his kits aren't excellent as they are superb but rather building a Hawken style rifle is considerably more demanding than building a traditional longrifle and requires an almost ingrained understanding of how it needs to be built to do successfully.

Tom

[Martin_G]

Jerry, J.D., Rich, Roger, & Tom,


I'm very grateful to all of you for sharing your ideas,experience and suggestions with me!

There are a few things that I did not think of one of which is getting together with a local BP group. As to safety, I have never had an accident or injury from a firearm but these were modern cartridge types. I was unaware that BP rifles needed to be treated differently pertaining to safety, however, I am very glad that this was pointed out to me.

Another was the roundball vs. minie. I don't recall if it was someones personal opinion (not mine btw) or marketing but I was led to believe that the minie was the better choice for accuracy and distance. I will read the posts pertaining to them.

Before the weekend is gone I hope to locate a local BP club or group where I can learn from the beginning about BP. IMO, this is probably the best piece of information I have been given!

Aside from learning from local clubs can anyone recommend a decent monthly BP magazine or a book to get ? I realize that many magazines are beholden to their advertisers. I would like to find one or two that have articles that are worth reading and have tech articles.


I can't say enough how much I appreciate your help in getting started in BP the RIGHT way!



Thanks,

Martin

[elk killer]

maybe even post as to where you live
and if no groups are close to you
maybe some one with experience lives close
and would be willing to help you

[rich pierce]

Most magazines cater to a wide audience and would not have much of the beginner basics in them.  Although great for those who love specific topics, Muzzle Blasts and Muzzleloading magazine seldom cover the basics.  There must be a good book out there on shooting the round ball.  I used the Lyman manual for years as a reference- it had ballistics in it, etc., but lent it out.

[keweenaw]

There is a wealth of information on the Black Powder shooting section of the forum.  Loading techniques, cleaning, casting, lubes, etc.  The NMLRA also has a sort of general handbook that is distributed to new members covering safety issues, handling, etc. as well as the different types of shooting.  Muzzle loader safety isn't all the different from modern firearms safety, it's just that there are a lot more  places where you can screw up - like pointing the piece at your head while loading, shot starting, double charging, etc.

Tom

[J.D.]

Muzzle loader safety isn't all the different from modern firearms safety, it's just that there are a lot more  places where you can screw up - like pointing the piece at your head while loading, shot starting, double charging, etc.

And the ubiquitous dry ball, or loading the ball without the powder charge. Everyone dryballs, at some point. The problem is knowing how to remove a dry ball safely. There really isn't anything to it, but one must know how to deal with these things.

Oh, and the patent breech in those pieces precludes the use of pellets, requiring loose powder instead. The patent breech is a small diameter powder chamber at the very breech that will not allow the pellets to seat near the flash channel. The result is, that the flash of the cap will not reach the pellets.

God bless

[The other DWS]

just a thought on the conical/minie" bullet vrs. round ball.

There is a long and complex history behind the hows and whys of the transition from "balls" to "bullets".     As a oversimplification, within the context of your initial questions.  Patched round balls work very well in barrels with slower twists and can be accurate out to 200 or even 300 yards, in properly trained experienced hands.

Minie' balls or expanding base sub diameter bullets are conical and were designed to meet military needs,  rapid "more-accurate" fire in smoothbore musket fashion with large bore military rifle-cut muskets.   In practice in the American Civil War, it extended accurate fire range out to several hundred yards while maintaining a rate of fire similar to or perhaps a bit better than the military smoothbore musket which preceded it.

in terms or raw accuracy remember that the slug gun shooters used various forms of conicals as did the offhand schuetzen match shooters, however the former were in super heavy bench guns, do recoil was not a significant issue, and in the latter they were using much faster twist barrels and only enough powder to punch a clean hole in a sheet of paper at 200 yards.   for a practical hunting style rifle for use with conicals/ or minie's you would need a fast twist barrel with a different cut of rifling than most patched round ball rifling patterns and you would need to be prepared for heavier recoil than you  might find comfortable for much practice or match shooting.

I won't address the issue of saboted slugs since they are much more in tune with the so-called "modern muzzle loader" movement with all its techno-paraphernalia and is pretty much the antithesis of what most of us here are concerned with in our shooting.  I say this intending no   personal disrespect to you, of course.
  

[Pete G.]

Get a fully assembled and functioning gun and learn how to handle and shoot these things first.

I think I have learned something from every build I have ever done. If you build a gun and something isn't quite right (very few don't require some kind of adjustments) you will never know whether it is the gun or the gun's attachment to the ground.

[roundball]

And remember..."Google" is huge in terms of finding all sorts of articles on anything, right at your fingertips of course.

My personal belief is that taking the step into blackpowder arms is so foreign and different from our typical years of growing up with centerfire arms, that several hours of reading as many articles as you can on the basics of blackpowder, Flintlocks, loading, shooting, cleaning, patched round balls, etc, etc, will be time well spent...

[Martin_G]

From other posts I have read it looks like I'll go with the round ball. Lyman makes two rifles that I like. One is the Great Plains with 1- 60" or 66" twist and their GP Hunter has a 1-32" twist. Both are available assembled or in kit form.

And the T/C Hawken is 1-48" twist. This is a factory built version, not the kit.

I don't plan on using any CVA or Traditions rifles.

Which twist rate should I choose to work with ball? I don't plan on going past 150 to 200 yards max, with 100 yards being the norm.

Does the twist rate have a bearing on felt recoil, providing the caliber, powder charge, and rifle weight is the same, or does it have more to do with type (minie or roundball)?

[Kermit]

Yep, what's already been said. And I second the opinion that you should start with a complete gun. Track of the Wolf has the Lyman. Pay attention--they have both fast twist and round ball barrels (1:60).

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=12&subId=83&styleId=290&partNum=LYMAN-GPR-54-P

Others sell 'em too. You might find a used one that's perfectly servicable--and saleable when/if you move on to something else, like maybe finishing that kit you are thinking about. And find that local club, cuz you will want some help with that kit!

[Jerry V Lape]

Martin,

I can see from your notes on yardage and other indications you are under the heavy influence of modern rifles, a disease we all know as magnumitus.  If you want greater range and power in a muzzleloader the formula is all different from modern guns.  To get more power you go to larger calibers.  A favorite moose caliber of one of the members on here is .69 caliber.  Others shoot .50, .54, .58 and .62s for game up through elk.  African caliber power is in gauge sized rifles like 10ga, 8ga and even 4ga.  After about .54 caliber the power is there to penetrate but the trajectory becomes difficult to manage.  So your 150 to 200 yd expectations may be a little long.  But that is what you will learn shooting with a BP group.  Have fun and check back with your questions and successes. 

[Dean D.]

Last years Deer season snuck up on me too quickly for me to use my new (unfinished still) Lancaster so I opted to purchase a Lyman GPR .54 cal flintlock (1:60 twist for patched roundball).  At the time MidwayUSA offered the cheapest price and had the rifle in stock. 

I have been happy with the rifle so far but think I will prefer my kit rifle when I finish it.  L&R makes a drop-in replacement lock which I will probably purchase sometime in the future.  The Lyman lock works ok but it is not of the same quality as the L&R that came with my kit.

Everyone here has offered you great advice, you won't go wrong if you do as they advise.   

[msw]

shot centerfire for a number of years, and on a whim bought a Thompson Center Renegade flintlock in the early eighties.  it grows on you, and after a while, more of my stuff was blackpowder, and now i haven't spent much time on a rifle without a bit of rock in it.  there's a magic to burning blackpowder that you don't get with primer driven stuff.


for what it's worth, i would consider your skill level before putting any serious money into a kit.  if you're 'handy with tools, the Lyman is probably a good deal.  if, however, you have the mechanical aptitude of the average housecat, go with the Thompson Center.

Both Lyman and T/C have well deserved reputations.  I give T/C a slight advantage over Lyman, based on T/C's lifetime wraparound warranty, but that's just my personal preference.

you should join a club if there's one in reasonable proximity, and get to know other muzzle loading enthusiasts.  don't hesitate to ask "How do I ... "  blackpowder shooters are usually more that willing to show you how to do it.

As a supporter of the sport, I would urge you to join not only the NRA, but also the NMLRA (National Muzzle Loading Rifle Assn.)  this gets you the "Muzzle Blast" magazine, which is full of good -to- know stuff.

You should also get a copy of Dutch Shoultz' monograph.  This will be twenty dollars well spentGood luck and welcome to the real deal!

[erdillonjr]

Martin the fast twist in the Lyman is for conical slugs. The slow twist 1/60 is for round balls. IMHI the Lyman is a better rifle. Ed

[J.D.]

Midsouth has the GPR in cap for $455

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000156031103

[Don Getz]

Martin.........If I were to make a choice it would be that Lyman Kit, 54 with a 1/60 twist.   Their kits can't be too hard to
assemble.   I think if you put all the parts in a box and shake it, you will find a lot of the parts fit, or will practically fit itself.
Just joking there, but, on a serious side, I don't think that kit will be too hard to assemble.   It will give you some idea of
what gunbuilding is all about, and perhaps a sense of accomplishment when you have it finished.   And of all the guns you
mentioned, that would be my choice for shooting.   Also, since it also the cheapest of the lot, you could spend those extra
bucks to get a good cleaning rod, cleaning materials, balls, patching, powder, etc., so that you can enjoy it.............Don

[Martin_G]

Hi Guys,


All of you have given me great advice which I shall do my best to follow! IIRC, Gary Cooper said in the movie "Sgt. York" while talking with his CO, "ya'all have given me a powerful lot to think about" !

In that spirit I say THANK YOU!

For the most part I am pretty good when it comes to mechanical things like cars & motorcycles and I've built a few custom bikes for myself and friends. To a lesser extent I have experience working on firearms. I am somewhat familiar with refinishing stocks (sanding, stain, final finish matte to gloss), and I have done minor work on my pistols such as fitting sears, springs, safeties, etc., along with proper maintenance.
.
I also have some experience with metal finishing (glassbeading, polishing, and cold bluing) I do not have experience with browning, rust bluing, &  hot bluing.I do have a basic understanding of the processes but no hands on time.

I used to reload metallic cartridges and work on the best load for my firearms. I was more interested in accuracy than getting the most power or distance.

Now at 53, (well,next month I will be! LOL), I find that modern firearms have lost some of their appeal and interest. I shot my first rifle (Remington bolt ,22 long )at 10 years old and I was hooked!I am hoping to find the "appeal" or whatever it is in BP firearms. As a newbie to BP I know that I have alot to learn but I believe that I'm up to the task.

While looking at pictures of muzzleloaders and tutorials on the forum that people built at home or shop I was awestruck at the absolute beauty of these "smokepoles"! I don't believe that there are any modern firearms that can compare!

Last night I went looking for muzzleloading clubs in my state (Maryland), and I was surprised to only find three clubs! Two of them are nearly 80 miles away while the closest is about 40-50 miles (rough estimate). The closest club has muzzleloading but the primary genre is modern guns and functions for BP are only a couple per year if I read the description correctly.

This Monday I'll try calling a club officer and get more info.



Thanks again,

Martin


PS: I may be able to get a factory T/C Hawken 50 or 54 cal for around $200.00 or so. The wood could probably use a refinishing but the metal is 90% +. Is this a good deal or should I still get the Lyman GPR?

[Leatherbelly]

Martin,
 Don Getz hit the nail on the head. Get the Lyman Great Plains 1 in 60" twist and shoot round balls. Did you mention flint or perc? If you can, get a flinter, away more fun.just my $0.02 worth.

[J.D.]

Martin, if you have the skills, and it sounds like you do, the Lyman GPR kit you mentioned would be a good choice.

The used TC might be a good if it was properly cleaned and maintained. However, many used BP guns aren't properly cleaned and maintained. Run a tightly fitting, oiled cleaning patch down the bore using a brass jag, for that caliber, on the ramrod. If you feel any roughness or a loose spot in the bore, run away. Roughness means it wasn't cleaned properly. Think rust and pits. A loose place means it was fired with the ball/bullet off of the powder. Think bore obstruction.

As to locating a local club, Check some of the local gunshops for a flier advertising a rendezvous or other ML event. Once you go to your first ML event, you will likely be hooked.  Someone at those events may let you shoot their guns, especially if you show a real interest. I'm sure they will let you look at their guns. Shoulder a Lyman and a TC and compare how comfortable they are to shoulder in addition to how well they "hold".

These old guns have a mystique that modern pieces can never match. Once you get a whiff of good old black powder smoke, you won't want to shoot anything else.

Good luck and God bless