Whats the best way to make a frizzen?

[Rolf]

If you where going to make a frizzen, would you:

A) File it out of mild steel and pack harden it.
B) File it out of mild steel and use kasenite.
C) File it out of mild steel and half sole it.
D) Cast an oversize rough frizzen in 0.70 carbon steel and file it out.
(Blackley would do the casting).

Best regards

Rolfkt

[J.D.]

Or you could make it out of  angle iron, then sole it or pack harden.

Just kinda thinkin'...typin' out loud, so to speak...type.

God bless

[Captchee]

 go  get you some  good carbon steel . 
 old tractor axels  Plow parts. Anneal it  make your frizzen ,re temper  and then draw  the temper .
 Why go through all the work of filing one out of mild steel , then have to add carbon or shoe it .

[Jim Kibler]

go  get you some  good carbon steel . 
 old tractor axels  Plow parts. Anneal it  make your frizzen ,re temper  and then draw  the temper .
 Why go through all the work of filing one out of mild steel , then have to add carbon or shoe it .

I would suggest using mild steel and case hardening it.  You could use high carbon steel to start, but pack hardening a low carbon base material is the traditional process in making a frizzen.  High carbon steel was not used.  A pack hardened frizzen will work every bit as well as one made of high carbon material.  In fact, some feel that a case hardened (carburized) frizzen will perform better than one made of high carbon material.  If you were to choose making it out of high carbon steel, I would suggest not using salvaged material but using material of a known grade or composition.  1095 would be a logical choice.   I guess in the end, it's a choice as either method will work fine.  If just making one, I wouldn't go through the bother of having one cast.  Forge or machine it roughly to shape and finish with files.

[JTR]

I'd opt for choice D.

I've made a few frizzens, and to tell the thruth it's not that much fun.

John

[Jim Kibler]

I'd opt for choice D.

I've made a few frizzens, and to tell the thruth it's not that much fun.

John

Investment casting is great, but in my opinion unless you plan on making multiple pieces, it isn't worth the trouble.  It shines when many repeat pieces are being made.  I've made masters, molds injected waxes etc. and found that for single pieces, your better to just make the piece from wrought material, rather than casting.

[Nate McKenzie]

Wouldn't they have started at the forge and rough hammer it to shape and then file it in the old days?

[LRB]

  Yes, but I'm thinking you would have to be pretty good at forging to pull it off, and save time. Was it me, I'd see if I could find a casting that could be altered to satisfaction.

[Captchee]

actually  its not that hard to forge and  temper  then draw . also one of the reasons  jim kembler was speaking of is based around the types of  material they had to work with . not to mention consistency of that material .myself i see no reason to  duplicate  a process thats frankly already been done for you , unless of course  you want to experience that  work . which no doubt can also be enjoyable .
again if we look back  in  more recent applications , a person can come up with very good steels .
 be it through the purchase of something  that Known . Or simply  utilizing what may be found for next to nothing . Myself I believe in  not buying anything I don’t have to . If I cant make it . I bloody well learn .
 i see no ned to set around waiting  on a package . or for that mater driving to a suply house . when  in short order  one can walk into the locka scrap yard and  walk out with  everything one needs  in the way of steel , for under a buck
 
  
some years back  i ran a cross a need to make a mirror of a small becky lock for a .410 SXS i was working on .
 i did most of the work on my mills . but when it came to the frizzen , i forged it from the front cross member support   on an early John deer  tractor .
 it actually took less time to forge it then it  does to make castings . And I will be the first to say , im no blacksmith .

 this is the beginnings of the frizzen  on that lock


 with little work i had this







 and shortly this




  
 i wish i could show you the finished lock but  i lost most of the photos  when the old PC i had dumped its hard drive
she sparkls very well though and is still a strong lock .

[Rolf]

Captchee,
Thanks for the pictures. Fascinating!! The main reason I'm contemplating lock making is the shortage of left-handed locks styles available. Sooner or later I'm going to have to take a stab at this, if I'm going to make what I want.

I'm thinking of making a "mirror" image of a small right-handed Siler lock I have. The thickest carbon steel I can find in Norway is 1/8" thick, which is to thin to forge a frizzen from.

Jim,
Mild steel and pack hardening seems to be the easiest way to go. How long will a packharden frizzen last before it has to be re-harden?

Best regards
Rolfkt

[Captchee]

   i fully understand . thats why i built the above lock .  a left hand version wasn’t available
well if your going to make more then one  or two . i would suggest  casting . While  a person with the tools , can produce a single lock  in  roughly the time it takes to   do good layouts for casting .
Casting quickly pulls ahead  if your looking at reproducing  multiple numbers .
 This is one of the reasons I  got my small foundry   .
  Frankly I got tiered of the  available selection of hardware, the quality and the cost .
 While I cant   cast steel . I can cast  most  anything that  becomes fluid under   2300 deg F  .
 In the time it takes to make one .  , I can cast 10 ..
 Again it all depends on what one wants to do  or may need down the road

[Jim Kibler]

Rolfkt,

I would pack harden the frizzen for somewhere around 5 hours or so at 1550 - 1600 F.  This should yield a case around .040" (1mm)  deep.  You could perhaps go longer to push it a little deeper.  I'm not sure how many shots it would last for, but my gut feel is that it will last as long as you need it to.

-Jim

[J.D.]

Carbon migrates into steel at a rate of about .010 per inch, at 1650 degrees, or so, don't remember the actual temp, per hour. 

So 3 to 5 hours at temp, should case harden that frizzen for life.

Adding a shoe is a lot faster and probably as effective.

That said, there is a learning curve for each of those operations. IMHO, if there is a cast frizzen that is close enough to work with some modification, I would use it, then pack harden of solder on a shoe.

God bless

[Rolf]

J.D , Jim,
Pack hardening sounds like the way to go. I have a computer controlled furnace, that can go up to 2100 F⁰. I use for hardening knives.

I have never tried pack hardening.
I f I "bake" the frizzen for five hours at 1600 F⁰,How should I pack the frizzen? What type and size of container? How much charcoal, etc, etc? How should I quench the frizzen?

Best regards

Rolfkt

[Jim Kibler]

Rolfkt,

You'll want to pack the frizzen in crushed charcoal and the part shold be completely surrounded.  You can also buy commercial pack compounds for the purpose.  Any container that will stand the temperature will work.  Some use ceramic crucibles, others just use welded steel containers etc.  A lid should be used, but it doesn't need to seal perfectly tight.  When quenching, just dump the entire pack including the frizzen in a tub of water.  Some kind of head and face protection is probably a good idea.  If you search the archives and tutorials, you should be able to find a great deal of information on the subject. 

-Jim

[J.D.]

If you have the furnace, you're set. Make a steel box, or weld a bottom on a piece of 3" ID black pipe or stainless pipe, and fill it less than half full of charred wood, leather, or bonemeal, broken into pea sized pieces. Some folks claim that aquarium filter charcoal works pretty well, but it didn't seem to work for me.

Fill the container half full, place the part in the container, full it up with charcoal, packing it down as it's placed in the crucible. Cover with a loose fitting lid and heat for the required time, at 1650,or so degrees F.

Reduce the temp to 1550 degrees before quenching in water, preferably outside.
Pour all of the contents, including lid, charcoal, and frizzen into the water, with the crucible as close to the water as possible.  

Don't char your wood, leather, bonemeal in the furnace. The smoke will likely damage the electrical components.

There is a good tutorial in either the old archives, or the new board. Probably the old archives.

God bless

[Rolf]

Thanks for your reply Jim and J:D.  I'll refrase my question.

When heated the charcoal "burns" and produces carbon dioxide and monoxide. These gases leak out of the pack. How thick should the charcoal layer surrounding the frizzen be, to last 5 hours?

I have searched the archives, found alot on the subject, but nothing about thick the charcoal layer should be.

Best regards
Rolfkt

[Jim Kibler]

Rolfkt,

I don't think there should be any concern of using up the charcoal in 5 hours.  I would think an inch or so surrounding the part on all sides would be more than sufficient.

-Jim

[J.D.]

IMHO, 5 hours in the pack might be a little much. Since carbon migrates at about .010" per hour, that would be about .050 from each side, so assuming the frizzen is .125 thick, there will be a .025 unhardened or less hardened core.

Don't know how that will translate to cracking in the quench. Parts will sometimes crack with only 3 hours at temp.

You might try quenching in brine or with an 1/8" film of light oil floating on the water.

Be careful of flame up if you decide to use oil on the water.

On second thought, it might be best to quench in brine.

AS to how much carbon to use in the pack. I think the recommendation from those who have been doing this for a long time is to use a minimum of 1/2" surrounding the part, with a minimum of 1 1/2 inch top an bottom.

IMHO, more would be better than less.

God bless

[Jim Kibler]

I would bet 5 hours at 1600F will likely give a total case around .040" with a standard non activated charcoal pack.  With any diffusion controlled process such as this, the depth versus time is not linear.  As time progresses the change in depth decreases.  One other thing to consider is that there is a gradient in carbon as distance from the surface increases.  At 1600F the surface will likely be approximately 1% carbon, but at the max visual case depth, it will likely only be a little more than the base material carbon content.  What I'm getting at is that I don't think cracking will likely be a problem.  One method to consider if you are concerned about cracking is to allow the part to cool in the pack, re-heat and quench in whatever medium you prefer.  This will allow slower quench materials such as oils to be used without the fear of it flashing from dumping the entire pack.  Just some thoughts to consider. 

You might find it beneficial and interesting to experiment a bit, prior to hardening your part.  Measuring total case depth isn't too difficult a process.  All it amounts to is sectioning your sample, grinding to maybe 320 grit or so and immersing in a soluton of nitric acid and water.  Somewhere around 20% concentrated nitric balance water should work well.  This should reveal the case.  Processing some samples might also relieve fears about cracking parts.

One final thing to consider is tempering the frizzen after quenching.  I would temper the entire frizzen around 375 F.  In addition I would draw back the area of the pan cover and toe further with a torch to somewhere around a blue color. 

Hope this helps.  Good luck!

[Captchee]

Good post Jim .
 I  do not believe that one can ever completely carbonize a metal that has not  be  based around carbon  to  begin with . As jim stated its not relative. it’s a reduction of % to depth .
  Also as Jim stated . A frizzen is not the same hardness through out . You have to draw the temper back  for given areas like the face and toe 

[doug]

      I have made two or three frizzens from automotive spring but still seem to have to use Kasenite on the face.  The steel hardens without difficulty but does not seem to spark very well.  My biggest problem with forging one from a flat piece is that I am left with a rounded corner below the face where in joins the pan and fence.  Part of the problem is that my forge is a propane forge using a venturi and I cannot get the steel well into the yellow range.

cheers Doug

[J.D.]

I would bet 5 hours at 1600F will likely give a total case around .040" with a standard non activated charcoal pack.  With any diffusion controlled process such as this, the depth versus time is not linear.  As time progresses the change in depth decreases.  One other thing to consider is that there is a gradient in carbon as distance from the surface increases.  At 1600F the surface will likely be approximately 1% carbon, but at the max visual case depth, it will likely only be a little more than the base material carbon content. 

Yes, I get that, but IMHO, the more carbon that migrates into the surface, the more migrates deeper into the steel, which can set up stress that can cause cracking. Again, I have had some cracking with cast frizzens off of foreign made locks, in addition to frizzens cast of low carbon alloys made here in the States. I suspect that the depth of the hard skin is related to cracking.

You might find it beneficial and interesting to experiment a bit, prior to hardening your part.  Measuring total case depth isn't too difficult a process.  All it amounts to is sectioning your sample, grinding to maybe 320 grit or so and immersing in a soluton of nitric acid and water.  Somewhere around 20% concentrated nitric balance water should work well.  This should reveal the case.  Processing some samples might also relieve fears about cracking parts.

Never thought to  do that. Thanks for sharing that.

One final thing to consider is tempering the frizzen after quenching.  I would temper the entire frizzen around 375 F.  In addition I would draw back the area of the pan cover and toe further with a torch to somewhere around a blue color. 

I like to temper the bottom of the foot of the frizzen to a lower temp. Don't know if it's necessary, but a slightly harder foot should  improve the action a bit.

God bless

[LRB]

  Doug, your main problem is that auto springs are not very high in carbon. They are often going to be little more than .6. They are high alloy steels with usually a high chrome content. It is the chrome allowing it to harden easily. If I recall correctly, 5160 is often used for coil springs, but there are a number of different steels used for auto springs. Most really good frizzens, other than pack hardened, are 1095, or a similar equavilent if from a foreign source.

[J.D.]

      I have made two or three frizzens from automotive spring but still seem to have to use Kasenite on the face.  The steel hardens without difficulty but does not seem to spark very well.  My biggest problem with forging one from a flat piece is that I am left with a rounded corner below the face where in joins the pan and fence.  Part of the problem is that my forge is a propane forge using a venturi and I cannot get the steel well into the yellow range.

IMHO, I would shoe a frizzen made of automobile spring, using a plain carbon steel. Like Wick said, the chrome is the primary hardening alloy in auto springs, rather than carbon. IMHO, it is the carbon in the steel that allows the sparks to form, so making a frizzen with an alloy other than carbon steel can cause problems.

As to the rounded toe on the face of the frizzen, That is an issue of hammer control and plain old experience. FWIW, forming square corners on the outside of a bend is something of an issue for lots of smiths, including yours truly.

Most of the books on blacksmithing address forming square outside corners, or you might get some help from one of the blacksmithing sites on the 'net. Anvilfire.com is probably one of the best BS sites on the net, so someone there should be able to help with those square shoulders.

God bless