Author Topic: Original shooting pouch flap details.  (Read 12192 times)

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Original shooting pouch flap details.
« on: July 15, 2010, 09:20:50 PM »
The thread on bag buttons got me to pull out my copy of The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch by Madison Grant and got me to thinking again about some construction details of the flap.  So as not to steal the thread on bag buttons, I thought I would start a new thread. 

I've noticed a trend on a good number of the new made bags shown on this forum that have the bag flap as a separate piece and sewed onto the back piece of the bag.  The leather on the back of the bag on such bags seem to at least partially go over the bag and then another piece of leather is sewed on to make the full flap.  While I checked the book for bag closures on the flaps, I noticed some of the original bags had flaps sewn on this way as well.  I am wondering why this was done? 

It would seem to me that having the back and flap made of one piece of leather would keep articles in the bag better and not allow rain in through stitches if the stitches weren't well sealed.  Though I'm not sure it would matter, a one piece back and flap would be stronger than a stitched on flap.  A solid piece of leather (at least to me) also looks better and would be easier to construct than all that added stitching. 

I'm just speculating, but is the sole or main reason the bag and flap were made of two pieces was perhaps the piece of leather the maker had wouldn't allow him to make the back and flap out of one piece and he could use the leather to better advantage in laying out the pieces and by making the flap separately?  Or is there some other advantage to a stitched on flap of which I'm unaware? 

I remember back in the 70's and 80's that some flaps were separate and stitched onto to the bag so the leather would fall down naturally over the bag.  The back bag piece of the bag was made taller than the sides and front and the flap was stitched flat to it.  Such flaps lay flatter than the arch you see in the flaps of some bags where the back and flap was made of one piece of leather.  These flat sewn flaps looked a bit neater, but I always thought the stitches would have to be sealed better.

Some of the bags in The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch look like they might have been made this way.  Plate 8 on page 21, and Plates 12 and 13 on pages 26 and 27 are some of the ones to which I refer.  I can't tell exactly, though, as the photography is not that clear.   

Plate 22 on page 39 looks like the flap was made a bit differently still.  On that one, it looks like the back piece and flap are one piece, but they folded the flap over against itself at the top of the back piece sewed it against itself to get the flap to lay flatter.   Again, I may be mistaken as the photography is not that clear.  If that was the way it was constructed, the only reason I can see for doing it would be to get the flap to lay flatter.

Something else I've noted is the bags with the oversize beavertail flaps are usually dated in the 19th century.  Was this because leather was more common or cheaper than the 18th century, so such a oversize flap would not have been seen as "a waste of expensive leather?" 

Has anyone else noticed these details and can explain why these things were done?  The reason I ask is because a solid piece of leather for the back of the bag and the flap can rather easily be bent/folded so the flap lays flat and I've always wondered about these things.

Gus


Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19540
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2010, 10:45:12 PM »
I've made them both ways and think it's possible to use a shorter and more lightweight flap to "stay down" without a button or closure when flat stitched and separate.
Andover, Vermont

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2010, 11:36:37 PM »
I agree Rich.  A sewn-on front flap lays flatter, and eliminates the opening at the corners where you can lose stuff and get unwanted stuff getting into the bag.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2010, 11:37:23 PM »
Rich

OK, that makes sense.  Have you seen original pouches like that?

Thanks, Gus
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 11:38:14 PM by Artificer »

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2010, 11:40:53 PM »
I agree Rich.  A sewn-on front flap lays flatter, and eliminates the opening at the corners where you can lose stuff and get unwanted stuff getting into the bag.

That's a good point.  I've added what I call "side wings" to some civilian pouches like those found on Military Cartridge box flaps since I know they date to the F&I war and earlier.  But a flat laying flap would elimate the need to do that. 

Gus

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2010, 11:41:38 PM »
I guess I should have asked was how early a flat sewn flap would have been  used?

Gus

Offline longcruise

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1839
  • Arvada, Colorado
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2010, 03:48:10 AM »
for my own pouches, I always sew a separate flap.  They lay down much better and eliminate the need for a button (at least I believe that to be so :D)  Also, when you turn a pouch leaving a large enough piece of the back extending above the front, it allows you to put a flap on that is wider than the pouch itself which of course makes a better closure.  The other thing about the sewn on flap is that when working with light leather of 1 to 2 oz it stiffens the pouch across the top so that it does not droop between the straps.


I don't think there is a lot of period identifiable ways of making pouches as there are with rifles.  Many pouches were made by the end user who may  have simply done it according to his own common sense.  Most farmers and frontiersman were leather workers on a regular basis.  Part of daily life so to speak.  On the matter of the expense of leather, it was probably not very expensive at all at that time and many probably finished there own leather from livestock or wild animals.
Mike Lee

Offline Dale Halterman

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2695
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2010, 06:55:35 PM »
Quote
Rich

OK, that makes sense.  Have you seen original pouches like that?

Thanks, Gus

I have an original pouch from West Virginia that has the flap sewn on. Someone, possibly one of the bag makers at Dixon's, told me it was done to stiffen the pouch and prevent droop as LC suggested.

Dale H

BrownBear

  • Guest
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2010, 07:17:11 PM »
For a long time I made only bags with one-piece back and flap.  I finally got around to trying one with a sewn-on flap.  Now all my personal bags have sewn-on flaps, and it's rare that anyone asks for the one-piece after handling mine.  It just works better for keeping the bag closed without a button and keeping things from wandering out the corners. 

Offline B.Barker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1394
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2010, 07:47:23 PM »
I have seen some originals with lighter weight flap sewn on to heavier back panal. Also some of the old pouches in Madison's book could of had hair on the flaps when they were new. Some of the photo's are dark and you can't tell if they ever had hair or not. And all the reasons mentioned above.

Offline T.C.Albert

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3582
    • the hunting pouch
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2010, 09:09:59 PM »
I think its a combination answer...things that come into play at first thought are: Hair on flap facings, edge bindings, flap backings, leather weight or thickness, leather availability, current regional vogues, and definatey the anticipated method of strap attachment...

A lot, if not most of the well made original bags Ive seen are stitched across the top capturing the straps between the back panel and a seperate flap piece...this seems to have been a favorite method of many  pouch makers...Ive even seen one old bag that had a one piece folded flap that was slit at the fold so the straps could pass through it there...and it was then "zipper stitched" straight across the straps if I reacall correctly....I dont exactly know why, but it seems they preferred to stitch straight across the straps horizontaly...it generally rips off there at the zipper stitch with out fail, and then you see all of the creative and repeated reattachment type repairs that generally riddle the back of the bag....but that is how they did it.
 
The only original "folded"...or one piece back panel and flap bag I own is made of very thin, "white" and perhaps home tawed leather...lt resembles raw hide more than leather now, but when made the leather (calf or deer) would have been thin enough that a flap folded at the top would have stayed closed... even so, I do make one piece bags from time to time...they can be finished up very nicely.
TCA    
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 09:13:46 PM by T.C.Albert »
"...where would you look up another word for thesaurus..."
Contact at : huntingpouch@gmail.com

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2010, 10:27:20 PM »
First, thanks to everyone who answered.  There was a lot of interesting information.

TCA,

I really appreciate you sharing the info on the original bags and especially how some types of construction would lead to failure sooner or often.  Your info on straps ripping across from horizontal stitching was particularly interesting.  I never knew it was common to sew the straps in what I would call "inside" the bag rather than on the outside of the back of the bag.  Thank you very much.

Gus

Offline T.C.Albert

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3582
    • the hunting pouch
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2010, 11:10:36 PM »
Gus..it really was very common, even on professional quality bags.
Today it seems counterintuitive, but back in the day there must have been a particular reason or functionality in mind. In fact, many of what I think are some of the best examples of old bag making were made this way. 

When an original is restored, often the little end strips of the old strap sandwiched between the panel and flap will still be there and reveal themselves upon careful examination...showing how the stitches often hold while the strap breaks clean off...for restoration the strap is usually simply reattached to a few of old holes on the back panel made by the many earlier period era repair attempts. In fact, I sometimes wonder if some old bags still exist only because the straps couldnt be held on any more and they were retired and subsequently tossed up into the loft or attic etc...
TCA   
"...where would you look up another word for thesaurus..."
Contact at : huntingpouch@gmail.com

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2010, 11:27:58 PM »
TC,

Now I'm wondering how to make the bag as authentically as possible and stay away from the stitching going horizontally through the straps.  I would wish to not "build in" a weakness.  Have you ever seen the flap stitched across the top but stopping before it goes over the straps?  What I'm thinking is that hide glue could have been used on the portion of the flap that goes over the straps to hold the flap leather tight over the strap and not have to stitch horizontally through them? 

Gus

Offline LRB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1567
    • WICK ELLERBE
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2010, 01:22:40 AM »
  Hide glue is not at all waterproof. One good wetting might release it. I suppose it could be heavily waxed over, but that would be just one more chore to attend to on a running basis.

Offline bluenoser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2010, 05:18:05 AM »
One of the reasons hide glue is used in the assembly of musical instruments like violins is so they can be disassembled for later repair.  Water is applied to the joint to release the bond.

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2010, 10:15:34 PM »
LRB and Bluenoser,

Thanks for the info on hide glue being so water soluable.  I didn't realize that as it was commonly used for furniture, but for inside furniture and that is now obviously why it wasn't used for outdoor furniture.

I looked up fish glue as a possible period glue to use, but many sources say that is water soluable as well.  However, fish glue was used in the manufacture of Mongolean Bows and a water soluable glue would not have worked well - especially when they invaded Europe.

Gus

Offline T.C.Albert

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3582
    • the hunting pouch
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2010, 04:34:06 PM »
Well...I think the best thing if you dont want to zipper stitch across the top of the strap, is to stitch across the top of the bag as normal if thats the design you want, and then attach the strap to the back panel with vertical stitches along the strap edges...I really dont know if old time glue will really hold as I have never tried it..
.
However, You could also just stitch across the top of the straps and say its an experimental archaeology type trial done on purpose to test the old traditional construction methods...just to see how well the strap holds if stitched across ...

Here is what I suspect...and its just based upom my own experiments and observations...
when a strap gets really wet, and the bag is hung to dry, the moisture collects at its lowest point as it dries...maybe simple gravity causes that...this perhaps causes the tannins etc to concentrate a bit at their ends, and as a pouch is usually hung up to dry, not laid flat, this subtle concentration tends to eventually harden and degrade the strap leather where it attaches to the top of the bag and it eventually tears off at the zipper stitch with time....if a strap is attached to the back of the bag, maybe the old timers figured such drying of wet straps would eventually rot or degrade the integrity of the leather on the bags back panel as well as the strap ends if the panel was in contact with the strap as when a strap is sewn to the bags back, and a torn back panel is way worse to repair than reopening a few stitches on the top seam and resweing in a new strap end...I personally think the strap attachment is the weakest link no matter how you beef it up, and designing it so it does the least damage to the bag as it fails is maybe what they had in mind??
TCA
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 04:42:01 PM by T.C.Albert »
"...where would you look up another word for thesaurus..."
Contact at : huntingpouch@gmail.com

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2010, 09:40:16 PM »
TCA,

That's an excellent suggestion on the straps getting wet, hung to dry, and the straps losing their viability due to it.  Bravo. 

One thing I have definitely learned from your information is to NOT sew across the top of a strap and set it up for failure.  Looks like it will be vertical stitching and maybe adding an additional center vertical stitch instead.  Since stitching the straps on the back of the pouch seem to last longer, it would not be hard to use slightly longer strap length to be stitched, but stop the stitch just below where the flap is stitched to the back piece.

Thanks a lot.  Gus

RoaringBull

  • Guest
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2010, 01:16:46 AM »
How common was a one piece back/flap that, in order to keep the flap laying down flat, was stitched horizontally across the top and the flap attached to the back?


Boy that sounded clear...

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2010, 06:06:50 PM »
How common was a one piece back/flap that, in order to keep the flap laying down flat, was stitched horizontally across the top and the flap attached to the back?


Boy that sounded clear...

Great question, I was thinking that myself.  At least one, if not two in The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch looks like that was done, but I can't tell for sure.  I would like to know as well.

Gus

Offline Elnathan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2010, 08:24:11 PM »
"I looked up fish glue as a possible period glue to use, but many sources say that is water soluable as well.  However, fish glue was used in the manufacture of Mongolean Bows and a water soluable glue would not have worked well - especially when they invaded Europe."

Bows were covered with birchbark or leather to protect them, I believe. Europeans, despite being aware of the technology (they used it on crossbows), never really embraced the composite construction method and the relative dampness of Europe is often cited as a reason why. It would be interesting to know how much of a problem damp really was for fishglue.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

BrownBear

  • Guest
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2010, 08:37:48 PM »
I have seen some originals with lighter weight flap sewn on to heavier back panal. Also some of the old pouches in Madison's book could of had hair on the flaps when they were new. Some of the photo's are dark and you can't tell if they ever had hair or not. And all the reasons mentioned above.

Many of you probably know this, but I'm posting on behalf of those who don't.  With recent advances in photo processing software such as Adobe Bridge and Photoshop, it's possible to scan the photos from Grant's book, then draw up lots of "hidden" detail from the photos.  

I'm posting this not as a ripoff from Grant's terrific book, but as a quick example of what you can do and strong encouragement to buy your own copy.  In fact, this photo has been reduced dramatically for posting, and even more detail is visible in the larger size than here.  You can actually make out the little bit of hair remaining on the hide within the heart piercings.

I'm not going to post the original unaltered scan, but encourage you to get your own copy and open to page 47 for comparison with this:


« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 08:39:24 PM by BrownBear »

Offline louieparker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 831
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2010, 12:57:27 AM »
   a couple points on the posted bag photo that might be of interest to someone . The piercings do have hair and it points up . I would have expected it to point down . Also the scalloped trim at the top of the flap is not leather but some sort of man made product . The scollop's were cut with appears to be very fine pinking shears . Lots of little points .  Louie Parker

Offline T.C.Albert

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3582
    • the hunting pouch
Re: Original shooting pouch flap details.
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2010, 04:30:21 AM »
Thanks Louie...those are nice details to know about...thats a really neat bag.
TCA
"...where would you look up another word for thesaurus..."
Contact at : huntingpouch@gmail.com