nose cap question

[Red Owl]

Just finished making a nose cap. I know that a cross pin is pc and that's probably how I'll attach it but a screw down from the bottom of the barrel channel would sure be a lot easier. Was the screw in the barrel channel a historically used method or were only cross pins used?

[bob in the woods]

I'm not sure what you mean re cross pinned?? Mine are usually riveted .  Some of the really early ones
were fixed by a screw threaded into the bottom of barrel, I believe.

[smshea]

Locally (Lebanon) you often see three rivets , one forward and two back. East of here Ive seen several of plain guns with one rivet through the bottom of the cap.

[Red Owl]

By cross pin, I mean the same arrangement used to secure the ramrod pipes. A 1/16" cross pin through the stock. I thought the same pin technique was used on a nose cap. The only problem is you have to drill the nose cap at an angle which seems like the 1/16" drill will flex and wander all over the place.
   What kind of rivets were used? I thought on a screw, a flat head was counter sunk into the bottom of the barrel channel and then the excess part of the screw protruding below the bottom of the nose cap was filed flush. Was this done. Steel/iron screws?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I've seen a few original rifles that had a screw up though the cap into the barrel, or perhaps a steel nut/washer in the channel.  But by far, the best and easiest method is to rivet them with a copper rivet.  I use copper leather rivets, but turn the head down to about 1/4" diameter.  They have a shallow countersink, and don't require you to remove too much of that thin piece of wood between the bottom of the barrel and the nose piece.  The copper is rivetted on the outside (bottom) of the nose piece, the rivet coming down through the wood and nose piece.  I put three of these on the JP Beck I'm making presently...very secure.

[Red Owl]

Thanks- I never knew that's how they did it.

[Dennis Glazener]

I use a piece of #6 solid copper wire. I bend an L (put wire in a vice then flatten the part I bend over) in one end, put that end under the barrel channel. I inlet the flattened part flush with the bottom of the barrel channel then slightly counter sink the hole on the outside. Then peen the end until it fills the countersink. File off smooth with the cap.
Dennis

[Benedict]

I think that there was a discussion a long time ago.  As I recall, it appeared that Beck used 3 iron rivets.  I remember the iron because I always used to use copper rivets. 

Bruce

[Red Owl]

Well, time to confess my total ignorance but maybe some other folks are in the same boat. I have seen a few nose caps where a small pin is visible- just like that to hold a ramrod pipe and I thought "Boy, that's the historically correct way". So far I have not used a flat head screw, instead I have used a short section of threaded brass rod that I have run up from the outside or bottom of nose cap and had it stop just short of the bottom of the barrel channel. THEN some one told me I did it wrong, a flat head screw ought to be used with the flat head counter sunk into the bottom of the barrel channel. The excess screw material that is sticking out the bottom of the nose cap is then filed flush to the nose cap. To be honest- that didn't sound historically correct.
   So rivets. LOTS of questions.
1. 3 rivets: how are these positioned? all in a straight line? one down and two off to the sides?
2. What are the diameter of the rivets?
3. Any more information welcomed.
And.... just to make sure, the rivets are the historically correct way, in other words- that is what is on some of the original long rifles?
   Once again- thanks for all help. Really appreciate it.
   If I'm going to put on a nose cap- might as well do it the PC way.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Well..........I think you will find there are lots of PC ways to do it.......

[Bill of the 45th]

I'm a fan of the copper rivet, I like 8 gauge, followed by the home made iron rivet from very soft coat hanger wire.  I have also used 1/8" brazing rod.   Helps minimize the Aw #$#$#'.  I start smaller, better oops factor, in case you need to go bigger, since it's about the last thing I do in finishing a gun.

Bill

[J.D.]

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=1667.0

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?action=search2

[Red Owl]

J.D. THANKS.  That old post explains it all.  What I have seen is what looked like a single pin going through the stock crosswise- like the pin for the ramrod pipe but from the illustration what I was apparently seeing was an iron rivet that went into the bottom 45 degree flat on the barrel channel.

It seems a 3/32" diameter or maybe a 5/65" diameter would be fine and some nails are about that size. What diameter would you recommend? 1/8" seems way too big.

Really glad I asked the question. The devil is in the details and a lot of this stuff never gets discussed much.

[Pete G.]

I like to use the copper tacks from the hardware store. Cut a slight inlet for the head in the barrel channel, then cut off the sharp end and rivet into a countersunk hole drilled through the nosecap.
I think that I read somewhere that the three rivet method uses one forward underneath the bottom barrel flat and two aft on the oblique flats. I prefer to fit the cap to the wood closely and use the one rivet underneath.

[Jim Filipski]

I thought "Chris I"  would have chimmed in bout now. The "screw in the nose cap into the barrel " ......actually a dovetailed piece....... was a traditional method used by the German gunsmiths  in the 18th c for Jaeger rifles....not a lot a carry over into the new world however!
Jim

[Red Owl]

Well I have been checking some antique gun images on the net now that I know what to look for. My original, mistaken idea that there was a cross pin- I now realize if such had ever been done the exposed end of the pin would be an oval shape due to its angle to the surface of the nose cap. A rivet in the same spot- driven perpendicular  to the surface of the nose cap- and up to the slope on the underside of the barrel- that leaves a round pin end- like what I am seeing. So, I would conclude that the cross pin idea was never/seldom done. It seems to me that on the two rivets into the under side slopes of the barrel- a lot look like white metal or iron that has not rusted.  When the rivet is on the underside- or ramrod location, copper seems more common.
   On the "riveting" aspect. The really thin wood in the area looks like it could easily split out the long way.  I am assuming a very minimal amount of peen hammering was done- just enough to lock the pin/rivet.
   AND...most photographs show the lock area or the patch box, sort of interesting that the muzzle cap isn't shown that much.  On some I can't see anything on the sides and the ramrod is in place so I am wondering if on those images the rivets are in the ramrod area or bottom flat. Either that or a brass rivet was used that was hammered tight enough into the surrounding nose cap so as to be difficult to see.
   In any event, to me at least this has been a learning experience.  I'd appreciate any further words from anyone on this subject. Thanks.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I think you've got it figured out.  There are many ways of riveting the nose piece on, and they are all done very gently.  With the barrel in the channel, and the forend upside-down in the vise, there's lots of support for the tapping that upsets the metal of the rivet, be it iron, steel, brass or copper.  Give it a try...not too difficult.

[Red Owl]

I straighten out a section of coat hanger- I never knew the stuff was that soft. Right now I'm pretty much settled on using that for the rivets.

[Red Owl]

One more nose cap Question... I always thought all the originals were one piece, that the two piece is a modern day short cut but in looking at some photos of "antiques" it looks like some were two piece, on some the end fitted into the sides and on others the end fit flush over the sides. I was also surprised at the large percentage with grooves, I thought most originals were flat on the under side.  In any event, any further comments appreciated.
   And, the reason I'm asking is I am not certain whether the so called "antiques" for sale on the net are true originals or not, hence why I am asking here.    Thanks.

[b bogart]

Well now we gotta included the one piece nose caps that didn't have an end on them (ala Bucks County). Some wrap around, some wrap just over the top return, grooved, ungrooved. A virtual smorgsaboard of nose cap styles.

[Red Owl]

Yeah, I wasn't sure in one image of what I was looking at but it looked like a nose cap, grooved on the bottom, with an open front. An Issac Haines.

[holzwurm]

The Freund rifle used as model at the Western Kentucky State University class taught by Ron Scott has a cast nose cap that is held in place with a #4 flat head screw threaded into the bottom barrel flat. It only has to be deep enough for three full threads to be tapped in.

[keweenaw]

Nose caps can be cast, swaged or constructed.  Case nose caps are typically included in kits but were relatively rare on period longrifles.  Swaged ones are made of sheet brass bent around a form with the vertical part at the front pounded up over the end of the form.  These tend to be slightly rounded at the bend. Constructed nose caps are also made of sheet brass but of two pieces, one piece forming the bulk of the cap with the end piece soldered in.   Of course many of the Bucks Co. rifles just eliminate the end piece.  Both swaged and constructed caps are common on original rifles.

Tom