John Rupp I....?

[Bob Pearl]

This may have already been mentioned. Especially during the 18th c. a father takes the title of I and son of same name takes the title of II. When father dies, the son takes the I title. It's what makes genealogy fun.

[Bob Smalser]

The Rupp family appeared to tend toward using middle names as the spoken name more than most, and "I and II" I believe are modern contrivances designed to minimize confusion.

Which is just as well, as there are sufficient potential "John Rupps" in three generations to choke a whole stable of horses:

[Eric Kettenburg]

Moll was considerably older than 17-23 in 1763 when he moved from Rockland to Allentown, as he is noted on neighboring warrant surveys ca. 1750/51 (of which I have copies coming from Harrisburg).  This means he had to be at least 30, if not older, in 1763, and around 40 when he married Lydia Rinker - this assumes the same man, but given the first-hand information timeline, it possibly is a father/son situation.  I doubt it, but the possibility is very real.  The hypothetical scenario w/ Abraham Rinker and the likelihood of a move to Northampton for $$$ reasons is a VERY very good hypothesis, and probably accurate as the timing is almost too coincidental to be coincidence.  

I would be very curious to know where Kastens retrieved the information regarding Moll - directly via the archives or indirectly via later 'Histories.'  Likewise with Brent Moll - I exchanged quite a few emails with him 4-5 years ago, and I don't believe that he mentioned direct archival research (all of the Northampton Co. paperwork is now microfilmed/microfiched at HSP in Philadephia and very easily accessible) but rather that most of his information on John Moll (this was the only Moll we were discussing) was coming from the 'Histories' as well as Heffner's little book.  That was my impression, anyway.  This is particularly relevant as pertaining to the William Moll story, for to my knowledge, no archival researcher - neither Heffner, myself nor others who have gone through the archives in both Easton as well as HSP - has ever found any paperwork relating to such an individual.  Heffner goes so far as to specifically note this.  This does not mean he did not exist, but it casts the story in doubt until something concrete materializes.  I don't think this doubt implies that later descendants were being deceptive in any way, as obviously there would be no reason to invent such as story.  However, 19th century genaeology based upon oral histories is tenuous at best.  If such paperwork exists I would love to know where it may be found, as perhaps it may shed additional information on Johannes Moll's origins.  

As it now stands, since we know he appeared in Rockland ca. 1750-1751, I am tentatively planning another trip down to HSP to research Philadelphia Co. records (this being what the area was designated at the time) or possibly I may shell out some $$$, use a local pro and save the gas money, given what it costs at the moment!!!!!!    

[Eric Kettenburg]

BTW Bob I don't intend that my thinking aloud be taken as any kind of attack on your work, as it is obvious you are devoting quite a lot of time to it and are quite passionate about it.  I assume by posting it publicly that you desire discussion.  We all appreciate it - to attach personal histories to tangible products of the past is absolutely fascinating.  I don't mean to get hung up in reference to Moll in particular, but a few years ago when I spent a lot of time on the NH County 'guys' it was very frustrating and aggravating - to say the least - to find errors consistently perpetuated from text to text (and I am thinking of references to George Leyendecker in particular at the moment...) when simply going directly to the first-hand sources *if available* (which some were, in his case) could have certainly clarified some of the questions which various 19th and 20th century authors were perpetuating.  There is of course much which may never be clarified - that's the nature of trying to clean the window 200 years later, I guess - it may never be completely clean.  I like to approach much of this as a constantly evolving revelation; this is one of the reasons that I chose the internet as a publishing outlet for what I was researching, as if people could verify errors and point them out to me (and a number were indeed noted, for which I am grateful), I could quickly change it.  Not something easily done with a book!!!  

[Karl Kunkel]

EK & Bob,

I'd still look forward to a book by either of you some day.

[Bob Smalser]

...  I assume by posting it publicly that you desire discussion.......I would be very curious to know where Kastens retrieved the information regarding Moll...

Exactly.  I can't think of a reference work that wouldn't have been improved by a more thorough peer review.  I appreciate your generosity.  One problem inherent in the trades has always been an unwillingness to share…ie, I'll teach you enough to be productive but not enough so you'll become a threat to my rice bowl....and that rice-bowl dynamic extends to other areas as well and does irreparable damage.   You apparently see it in the unavailability of artifacts for study.  I see it in disastrous modern solutions to boatbuilding problems Sinbad solved back in 770AD.  

Kastens in Neuhart Chronicle Vol IV p53-4 on the Molls cites The Woodmansee Collection; John GW Dillin; Henry J Kauffman; Earl S Heffner; the 1772 Allentown Tax list; Deed Book E1 p649 at Easton;Pa Archives 5 Vol 8 pp85, 230, 336, 332; Zion Reformed Church registers in Allentown; Register's File #1702 at Easton; Orphan's Court Docket 6 at Easton; Lower Saucon Reformed Church Register Apr 1827, Apr 1830, Nov 1831, Register's File #6084 at Easton; Register's File #9958 and OC Docket #28 p531.  

Kastens doesn't mention William Moll at all….William is mentioned for the first time in Mathews, Alfred and Hungerford, Austin, History of the Counties of Lehigh and Carbon,  Philadelphia, Everts and Richards, 1884.  

 http://search.ancestry.com/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=14003&pageno=1

I can certainly support Johannes Moll being born in 1733 versus 1746.  It passes the common-sense test that he died at age 61 rather than 47.  When prominent people died young or under unusual circumstances….like Christian Oerter at 30 from tuberculosis, or David Kuntz’s father at 33 after a “long, lingering illness”, the Kuntz and Newhard kin slain by Indians, or Peter Moll II from drowning at 33….the circumstances were generally noted somewhere.

[Bob Smalser]

This work would benefit greatly from a more thorough study of incidents with local Indian tribes.  Many of the "histories" mention the 1755 massacre of Moravian missionaries, then go on to say Northampton County was "spared" the troubles experienced by communities further out. 

You only have to scratch the surface to discover that to be total nonsense, even if some of the incidents were exaggerated.  "Warfare" with Britain or France in the minds of settlers in 1775 didn't mean Redcoats or Hessians, it meant tribal allies being unleashed on civilian settlers.  The terror of these incidents rippled throughout adjacent counties, and was heightened by the settler’s lack of faith in the Quaker political hierarchy’s unwillingness to provide protection.  Further, Indian incidents appear to be much more common than portrayed, and precipitated a number of important actions. 

The 1755 attacks killed a number of settlers besides the Moravians, including Kuntz, Newhard and (later) Moll kinfolk.  Accordingly, Peter Newhard’s 16-year-old cousin whose family had been made refugees by those attacks, walked over 90 miles to Harrisburg to enlist in Thompson’s Rifle Battalion as soon as Northampton County received the news that outfit was being formed in 1775.

The murder of 23 settlers in 1763…13 of them young children…probably precipitated Johannes Moll’s move to Allentown because of the money (finally) appropriated for weapons and a local defense force.  There he likely works with the defense force’s #2, and eventually marries his sister.

Peter Newhard’s other cousin Christopher, who was later killed at the Battle of Long Island, enlisted in the Pennsylvania Rifle Regiment in early 1776, the year after his 69-year-old father-in-law had been shot, stripped and scalped by Indians in Plainfield township.  Another unlikely coincidence.

And I had no idea that Wilkes Barre was totally destroyed by Seneca Indians unleashed by the British as late as 1778, with a reported 227 lives lost.  If accurate, that’s a biggie.

[Bob Smalser]

Moll was considerably older than 17-23 in 1763 when he moved from Rockland to Allentown, as he is noted on neighboring warrant surveys ca. 1750/51 (of which I have copies coming from Harrisburg).

I hope you'll post those when you get them.

What makes the early Molls pivotal is they were one of the first families to attempt gunmaking as their primary source of income.  It was a seasonal activity with guys like Newhard also farming 300+ acres, and the Moravians then were buffered by a large, productive commune, then hampered by the departure of Andreas Albrecht and the early death of Christian Oerter.  It kept the Molls cash poor...in the 1760's John I didn't even own a horse for transportation...but poor is probably what made them prolific.