accuracy

[Daryl]

The accuracy difference was squirrel-eye accuracy at 50 yards, compared to barely staying on a squirrel's head. To me, that's significant.

If I was going squirrel hunting with my .32 & knew no ranges would be over 25 yards, I could get away with 20gr. of 3F. If shots could be presented at 50 yards, I'd have to use 35gr. 2F.  At 25 yards, 20gr. will make a hole for 5 shots the size of a dime, but at 50 yards, you couldn't stay on a squirrel's body - not even a  fox squirrel.

If shooting at 25 yards in a contest, then, of course, you could get just about as good accuracy with less powder in the .40 as well - but not at 50 yards or farther - not with a very slippery lube, that is, in my .40.  The more slippery the lube, the more powder it usually takes to get the best accuracy in any barrel.

Too - the slicker the barrel, the more powder it takes.

In my .40 water based lubes like WWWFluid with a few ounces of Neetsfoot oil added allows charges as low as 50gr. 3F to shoot decently out to 50yards, 65gr. 3f in the .45 - the Lehigh Valley Lube didn't allow such light charges in either rifle.  It took powder to make them shoot, but man, did they ever shoot well - cleanly too,  and loading was a snap, even with 75gr. 2F in the .40 and 85gr.2F in the .45 - never a difficult loading, nor any buildup of fouling shot to shot. The greased patch load in the .45 is 75gr. 3F.  I know several guys who shoot only that much 2f in a .50 and one guy 65gr. 2f in his .62. They all suffer from trajectory and/or accuracy problems at the longer ranges.  I'd rather not.

[northmn]

Most of us used to shoot lighter charges at 25 yards especially.  But at that range the lighter charges will shoot well enough to score pretty well and then there was a factor of shooter fatigue, where shooting heavier charges can create a flinching problem (sometimes minor)  I do not believe most 50's shoot best with a 50 grain charge as more than one person used to claim about 70 grains of 3f as best.  Mine does not shoot that well with 50 grains either, but well enough for offhand stuff at closer ranges.  At 100 yards it likes about 80 grains of 3f.  I use 495 and 015 patching, which require short starting.  As most of my use is not that of target shooting I do not use water/alcohol based lubes but use a grease lube like Crisco or Bore Butter.  They do require more swabbing, but it is liveable if not shooting as much as at a match.
I had a 58 once that liked 70 grains of 3f out to 50 yards, went to h--l with anything but 100 grains for longer distances.  Nothing in between seemed to shoot.  Won a state shoot with that combo.

DP

[Roger Fisher]

The accuracy difference was squirrel-eye accuracy at 50 yards, compared to barely staying on a squirrel's head. To me, that's significant.

If I was going squirrel hunting with my .32 & knew no ranges would be over 25 yards, I could get away with 20gr. of 3F. If shots could be presented at 50 yards, I'd have to use 35gr. 2F.  At 25 yards, 20gr. will make a hole for 5 shots the size of a dime, but at 50 yards, you couldn't stay on a squirrel's body - not even a  fox squirrel.

If shooting at 25 yards in a contest, then, of course, you could get just about as good accuracy with less powder in the .40 as well - but not at 50 yards or farther - not with a very slippery lube, that is, in my .40.  The more slippery the lube, the more powder it usually takes to get the best accuracy in any barrel.

Too - the slicker the barrel, the more powder it takes.

In my .40 water based lubes like WWWFluid with a few ounces of Neetsfoot oil added allows charges as low as 50gr. 3F to shoot decently out to 50yards, 65gr. 3f in the .45 - the Lehigh Valley Lube didn't allow such light charges in either rifle.  It took powder to make them shoot, but man, did they ever shoot well - cleanly too,  and loading was a snap, even with 75gr. 2F in the .40 and 85gr.2F in the .45 - never a difficult loading, nor any buildup of fouling shot to shot. The greased patch load in the .45 is 75gr. 3F.  I know several guys who shoot only that much 2f in a .50 and one guy 65gr. 2f in his .62. They all suffer from trajectory and/or accuracy problems at the longer ranges.  I'd rather not.

Yes, as in too slick a bore/lube.  So I must ask how many shots has ol Taylor fired out of that .40 using the Murphy's oil soap?  Has he noticed fliers so far?  I submit that he will!    You folks are blessed with enough 'open' land to set up your 70 or 80 shot w walks, fun, fun fun!  Some of us have a problem there and must be satisfied with primative shooting from a firing line.  We have 2 clubs within an hr of my location that run winter w walks,each club runs 1 monthly one of 25 shots and the other of 30 or 30 plus.   We still consider ourselves fortunate getting that much...

[Daryl]

You are correct, Roger- we are indeed fortunate to have the trail we have - and the 3 new trails and shooting positions we've established at the new club are even better.

The trail we are shooting now only has stations for about 50 shots, but we can take many shots on other targets from each station as LB noted- making them brush-bucking shots to sweeten the challenge.  Ranges  can be from about 8 or 10 yards to 110 yards and everything inbetween.  It's been a while since I walked down the course with a range finder, but there are many targets in the 45 yd. to 80yard range - some quite small.

As far as I now, Taylor isn't getting fliers with Murphy's - he certainly isn't getting any brown mung that Harry experienced.  You'd have to be getting gas cutting to burn it, I think.  The flames merely being behindin the bore doesn't seem to burn it in the bore.  I certain that has everything to do with the ball/patch combinations used.  Teh combination of square rifling- ie: .010" to .012" deep, along with a .395" ball and .020" patch makes for a snug load.  Short starter is used, but not absolutely necessary - however in deference to the stress on that slim wrist, I'd use a starter every time.

I'd guess he's around 400 shots out of the Kuntz by now.

It appears to take us less time to load with a starter than most everyone else we've witnessed who doesn't use one.  The technique is fast and can be quickley learned as Flinter is finding out, now.

Different note - forgot I had an automatic Imperial/Metric decifering device in my computer - I merely have to put the mouse on a number and it subtends the metric conversion.  Thus -   .0197"patching is .50mm:  .015" is .381mm:   so .4mm is .0158"  Thus, my .40 uses a ball that is only .001" smaller than the bore, ie: .397" with a .5715mm patch (.0225") and a ball that is .002" larger than the bore, with a .48mm or .55mm patch.(.019" or .0215"). interesting.  Neither ball will roll down the bore as the sprue hangs up on the smaller .387" as it's only  .001" smaller than the bore.  The crown is so smooth - polished - that firm pressure alone on the patched ball with the starter knob will push it into the bore using the .0025" denim patch and .397" ball.  No- not coned.

[YORKTOWNE54]

Daryl, your rb starts easier with the short starter because of your moose antler material if I recall. By the way where would a flatlander find a moose antler shorty?

[LynnC]

Daryl - my bet is brown goop in the grooves if any use of murphys for lube.  Double cleaning patch it, I bet its there.  I was shooting a heavily patched and short stated ball.  Bore even looked bright.  When that cleaning patch starts to grab you'll know its the murphys concoction.  I'll NEVER use murphys in a lube again........

[Daryl]

Interesting - you can't get Taylor to stop using it - he gets no goop - spottless after cleaning and his drying patches are so tight, he has to use the bench vice to hold the barrel when running his drying patches up and down.  No brown or other streaks that I know of.  He double-flannel patches his water flushing patch.

He uses this every week - mind you it's only once a week - for 50 to 80 shots depending on temp.

[northmn]

Funny about the Murphy's.   I had heard some claim it was great and I tried it and quit using it.  I cannot remember why, but it was not working well.  Wonder if light vs heavier powdere charges might have something to do with it?

DP

[Daryl]

Maybe - Taylor is shooting 65gr. 3F in his .40 and 85gr. 2f in his .50 - both without any problems and super clean shooting - no buildup.  He also used it in his Jaeger .60 at around 85gr. 2f so that one is a low pressure load compared to the .40 load. Too, in his Bess, he used around 100gr. 2f- again, a low pressure load, no fouling probolems at any time in any gun - he also used a .740" ball and a .030" denim patch in that 10 bore. That is a compressed combination measuring .800"-  and a .774"smooth bore - for .013" compression per side on a WW alloy ball.  Pure lead balls did load easier, but the WW was no problem for someone used to snug combintations.  That gun has a hickory rod tapered to 3/8".

[bgf]

One more stick for the fire (its a bit cold here!).  Regarding that rule of thumb, I just remembered reading that the old barrels tended toward a slightly faster twist rate, something like 1:48 in many cases, if I understand correctly.  I believe that would favor a slightly lower charge, especially in the larger calibers, than we find optimal.  Just an idea that seemed worth examining-- only kidding about the fire.

[LynnC]

Perhaps Taylor is using a very minimal amount of mos in his lube blend - anything approaching 25 or 30 % mos in the several lubes I tried left a nasty mess.  Thanks to you Daryl, I was using .024 miked patch (.026+ with calipers).  The stuff loaded great and I pump flushed the bbl clean.  Eventually discovered the sticky stuff with the drying patches.  I'd like to know his lube blend but I don't think I could be convinced to try it again.  BTW, if anyone discovers the brown stuff in the grooves, carb cleaner and elbow grease will get it out
Every ones mileage seems to vary