Author Topic: John Stoudenour: Bedford Co. maker  (Read 16934 times)

Offline Larry Pletcher

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John Stoudenour: Bedford Co. maker
« on: December 11, 2010, 03:50:04 AM »
I was given information on a full stock percussion rifle with a date 1834 on the barrel.  The .32 rifle has a 41"  barrel.  the stock  has many brass inlays.  The name on the barrel is "John Stoudencu---".  The last 3 letters are unknown.  The gun is owned by a elderly man from Noble County in northern Indiana.  It belonged to his grandfather.  So far the information has been gathered by asking questions over the phone.

Tomorrow the gun will be brought to my house for some photos.  I'll post them late tomorrow. I'd appreciate any information that will help me identify the maker.

Regards,
Pletch  
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 01:01:06 AM by Larry Pletcher »
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

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Re: Possible Indiana Gun maker?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2010, 06:50:41 AM »
Sellers list a "Jacob Stoudenour" from PA. Close? perhpas a relative?
Hurricane

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Possible Indiana Gun maker?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2010, 03:28:18 PM »
Kauffman lists him too.  If John and Jacob are related, I'd expect this gun to have Bedford Co. characteristics.  Because of the owner's family history with the gun, it's very likely to be an original.  I'm looking forward to a chance to get pics.

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline JTR

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Re: Possible Indiana Gun maker?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2010, 04:26:48 PM »
From that spelling it sounds like a possible Stoudenour.
Whatever it is, I love it when they just pop up out of the woodwork like this!
I'll be looking forward to the pics!
Hopefully the old gent has someone to pass this gun along to.

John
John Robbins

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Possible Bedford Co. maker?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2010, 01:58:27 AM »
The gun has been here a while to examine and photograph.   A true bedford Co gun in every respect.  Smarter folks than me have been fooled, but I'd about bet my truck that it is original.

The lock has a classic Bedford plate with holes for frizzen and fr. spring.  It has a perc hammer whose shape isn't classic Bedford.  Apparently and early conversion based on the amount of burning around and behind the drum.  

All the typical Bedford things are there - patch box, many brass inlays, etc.  Brass inlays are very thin BTW.  A couple are missing, as well as a couple that have one end loose and taped fast - probably to keep me from messing something up.

A small brass inlay on the barrel holds the name: John Stoudenour  1834.  This miht be a son or relative of Jacob???  If made in 1834, I would have guessed it would have been made as a percussion.  However the plate is surely a flint at first.  (The very old owner said he was told that the conversion was done by the maker.)































This will give you the rough idea.  I didn't try to open the atch box.  Did Bedford makers have a hidden latch for the lid?  I didn't see any.  

The elderly owner is curious what such a gun would bring.
Regards,
Pletch
« Last Edit: December 12, 2010, 02:44:36 AM by Larry Pletcher »
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline whitebear

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Re: Possible Bedford Co. maker?
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2010, 06:17:48 AM »
In picture #6 am I seeing small script engraving over the last letters of the last name or my old eyes playing tricks on me?
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Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Possible Bedford Co. maker?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2010, 04:06:01 PM »
I looked over the name plate again and don't believe there is anything above the ending letters.  There is a wavy line between the name and the date, but that is all a magnifing glass could see. 

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline JTR

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Re: Possible Bedford Co. maker?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2010, 04:18:01 PM »
 :o :o :o WOW! What a great rifle!!! :o :o :o

If this is a fake, it has to be the best fake I've ever seen. So, until proven differently, I'll just say that it has to be one of the finest Bedford rifles to come to light in many a year, and ranks up there with the very Best of them!
True, it's not in top condition, missing some inlays and has a few cracks in the wood but that makes little difference to the gun, given its overall pristene untouched condition!

Pletch, you didn't mention the barrel length? Is it still full length at around 40 inches?

As for value, if everything proves correct on it as I suspect it will,,, if it were mine, I wouldn't sell it for anything less than $25,000 or $30,000.

If anyone offers the old gent substantually less, tell them to take a hike!

Also, a PM sent to you.
John
John Robbins

g rummell

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Re: Possible Bedford Co. maker?
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2010, 04:48:44 PM »
This looks like the work of John Stoudenour Jr. or John SR. the father to Jacob and John Jr. John Jr. was the brother to Jacob Stoudenour one of Bedford's best builders. John Jr. was listed as a gunsmith in North Woodbury Twp., now part of Blair county, around 1838 however there is only one known gun attributed to him. It is speculated that John Sr. worked with his famous son Jacob in Colerain Twp and may have built a rifle or two. This rifle strikes me as an original and may have been built by Jr. or Sr. My money is on Sr.

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Possible Bedford Co. maker?
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2010, 01:00:03 AM »
A pretty nifty rifle! Thanks for bringing it to the table, Pletch. We do appreciate it. It is a Bedford County rifle, and John, the appparent maker, was the brother of Jacob. The latter flourished in the trade while John didn't seem to pursue it as avidly. Jacob made a profusion of guns and he is generally thought of as having produced the best of the Bedfords. The suriving number is huge, by all accocunts so he must have stayed busy.
Jim Whisker gives a pretty good run down on the Stoudenour family in his several books on Bedford rifles. That this rifle is dated at 1834 says that it was made about mid period for the regional style. It began around 1800 and probably ended about 1900, effectively, (though I would argue against myself here, and say that it stilll goes on).
One thing that strikes me about this pieces is that John seems to have charted out his own course on ornamentation, shaping and style and didn't follow his brother, (I refer here to things like inlay shapes, PB finial, lockplate shape, among others). He didn't make just one or two rifles, obviously, and it behooves us to keep an eye out for more to come.
Gun has a lot of nice inlays which are still mostly intact. Can't tell which are silver and which are brass, but all seem to be engraved. The barrel may have been cut back a bit as most were out there at 44 inches, or so. It must have began its career as a flintlock, (many did) and later was changed over; the conversion is a dandy feature on this rifle.
Wood appears to be in reasonably good shape, although a number of the inlays need to be reset. The patchbox catch is located in the upper side plate corner by the buttplate and is pressure sensitive. By now most have been rendered inoperative by kids playing with it.
To my eye this rifle looks like the kids had at it awhile. At least during the depression, the owner didn't dig the inlays out to sell. The carving appears to be somewhat mediocre, but it is there, and is bold.
As to current value: a very fine Deffibaugh recently sold for 18K. Given that this piece is by a rare maker and has some family history attached, a premium might be in order which would have to be negotiated between the buyer and the owner. On websites you may encounter wild eyed opinions and offers, though I have rarely seen this happen, here.
Thank you again and good luck to your friend, he is fortunate to have your counsel.
All the best-Dick

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

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Re: John Stoudenour: Bedford Co. maker
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2010, 02:02:25 AM »
I have looked at this gun several times today and get an impression that much of the furniture is applied rather than inlet. Also it, the furniture reminds me of "Ohio" styling. Thus I am wondeering whether some of the "furniture" could be a latter embelishment to a fine Bedford??
The oval on the cheek piece even "looks" over sized??
Hurricane
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 01:25:13 AM by Dennis Glazener »

g rummell

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Re: John Stoudenour: Bedford Co. maker
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2010, 02:34:24 AM »
I have looked at this gun several times today and get an impression that much of the furniture is [b]applied rather than inle[/b]t. Also it, the furniture reminds me of "Ohio" styling. Thus I am wondeering whether some of the "furniture" could be a latter embelishment to a fine Bedford??
The oval on the cheek piece even "looks" over sized??
Hurricane

All the furniture found on the above fine specimen are all classic Stoudenour work. No add ons here.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 02:38:54 AM by G. Rummell »

Offline tallbear

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Re: John Stoudenour: Bedford Co. maker
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2010, 04:26:22 AM »
The brass screws on the patchbox bother me a little to me that would seem like a later addition.Not that the screws couldn't have been replaced but it may point to later work.

Larry is there a comb plate and any chance we could get a pic of it.

Mitch

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: John Stoudenour: Bedford Co. maker
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2010, 06:26:37 AM »
Thank you all for your comments and information on the Stoudenour gun.  It has been a treat to handle and photograph.  This experiences don't come around very often.   I hope  this information will be helpful whether or not the owner decides to sell.   I would like very much for him to be fully informed and  to enjoy owning this piece or selling if he chooses.  I appreciate the personal replies as well.

BTW here is a pic of the comb:


Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: John Stoudenour: Bedford Co. maker
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2010, 08:07:16 AM »
Very nice.
I am not the slightest bit surprised its got a converted lock.
The flintlock did not disappear overnight with the advent of the percussion cap.
It was not trusted immediately and in 1834 virtually all the military firearms except one of the Hall breechloaders, were being made as flintlock.
Flintlocks were still being made in the 1840s at least and there is a Hawken rifle converted from flint that likely dates to the 1850s. The Smithsonian Rifle.

Dan
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g rummell

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Re: John Stoudenour: Bedford Co. maker
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2010, 11:55:22 PM »
Am I seeing things or is the background around the raised carving behind the cheekpeice stippled?

Offline JTR

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Re: John Stoudenour: Bedford Co. maker
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2010, 12:21:47 AM »
I think your seeing things! ;D

I think that's just old blackened wrinkled up reticulated varnish/finish on the background of the carving.

John
John Robbins

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

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Re: John Stoudenour: Bedford Co. maker
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2010, 12:47:08 AM »
John: If your interpretation  is correct, why is it not "reticulated" out side of the "carved" area and why is it accentuated around the raised carving, as if to high light it. I down loaded and magnified it.
Hurricane

Offline jdm

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Re: John Stoudenour: Bedford Co. maker
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2010, 01:19:46 AM »
    The brass screws on the patch box  and. All the raised head s on the brads holding the inlays are in my openion  something to take a close look at.   For the high value of a piece like this it doesn't hurt to take a close look. Everything is probably alright .   It is a nice looking Bedford gun.
JIM

Offline JTR

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Re: John Stoudenour: Bedford Co. maker
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2010, 02:12:41 AM »
Fred, I think that is just an original excess or accumulation of finish medium in the carved area. That area actually is a very low wear area, so none of the finish was ever worn away allowing it to wrinkle up more. You see the same stuff just to the rear of the cheek piece inlay, leading back to the carved area.
You also see the same stuff in the concave area just above the silver inlay beneath the cheek piece.
And in the 4th picture showing the side plate, there's more of the stuff right below the silver inlay at the tail of the side plate mortise.
And actually a lot more of the stuff if you look at the low wear areas of the gun.

On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong.  :o

John ;D
John Robbins

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

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Re: John Stoudenour: Bedford Co. maker
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2010, 02:39:19 AM »
As well a day spent in the ALR "classroom" is well worth it. Thanks John
Hurricane

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: John Stoudenour: Bedford Co. maker
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2010, 02:47:50 AM »
The comment about the ALR classroom is well taken.  I really like these chances to learn. 

I think it was Gary earlier who mentioned that perhaps only one other rifles as surfaced that is attributed to John Stoudenour.  Does anyone know is whose collection it might be found?

Another earlier comment told me where to find the latch to the PB lid.  The answer was correct.  Pressure on the upper panel near the but plate released the lid.  You may have noticed that portion of the panel had been bent upward.  Looking beneath the panel I could see the button.  It looked like someone had pried around looking for the release.

Thank you again for your comments and future ones as well.  The classroom can continue from my point of view.

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline jdm

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Re: John Stoudenour: Bedford Co. maker
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2010, 03:05:30 AM »
John
     WE have an old  family chair, sense the 1850's. Same crinkled up black finish.  Dad used to say grandma varnished it to much.      JIM
JIM

g rummell

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Re: John Stoudenour: Bedford Co. maker
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2010, 03:57:43 AM »
Can anyone explain to me the inner workings of the patchbox release? I know you push on the upper sideplate of the patchbox to release it, but how does it work? I had the opportunity to inspect and photograph, this past weekend, a fine Daniel Border that belongs to Chuck Dixon and it had the same type of release. However, Chuck wouldn't let me tear it apart to see the inner workings.  ;D As many Bedford's as I build, I really need to figure this one out.

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

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Re: John Stoudenour: Bedford Co. maker
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2010, 05:09:58 PM »
Hidden patchbox releases: An additional point. Sometimes the patchbox release is hidden under the "toeplate " and can be released with pressure in that area. I am not sure whether this is a trait of a particular school of makers??? but I have seen it on several guns.
Hurricane