Author Topic: Earliest known "smooth rifle"  (Read 7113 times)

Offline Salkehatchie

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Earliest known "smooth rifle"
« on: December 26, 2010, 05:32:50 AM »
I did a search on the forum and did not find it, might have missed it.  However...

What is the earliest smooth rifle known out there, documented as to origin and date?

Thank you

Offline Nate McKenzie

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Re: Earliest known "smooth rifle"
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2010, 06:20:14 AM »
How could you tell if it was made as a smooth rifle or bored smooth after the rifling became worn or the need for a fowler became more than the need for a rifle?

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Earliest known "smooth rifle"
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2010, 07:55:14 AM »
I did a search on the forum and did not find it, might have missed it.  However...

What is the earliest smooth rifle known out there, documented as to origin and date?

Thank you


I would have to go get the book and read it but rifle stocked smoothbores are documented to the mid 1750s at least.
Read Dewitt Baileys "British Flintlock Military Rifles". The first chapter on Indian rifles.
But I believe there are a lot of surviving smooth rifles that were rifled when new.
Dan
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Offline Salkehatchie

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Re: Earliest known "smooth rifle"
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2010, 03:56:00 PM »
Thank you Gentlement.  I will get the book.  And good point, rifled that were rebored to smooth.  Then...how do you really know?

Again, thank you.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Earliest known "smooth rifle"
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2010, 05:16:48 PM »
September 13, 1739
The Pennsylvania Gazette
RUN away on the 6th Inst. from Thomas Rees, of Heydelburg Township, Lancaster County, a Servant Lad, named Richard Beddes, aged about 17 Years, has light bushy Hair: Had on an old striped linsey Jacket, old linnen Shirt, new Linnen Breeches and an old Hat, no Shoes nor Stockings. Took with him a smooth Rifle Gun. Whoever brings the said Servant to his said Master, or secures him in the County Goal, so that he may be had again, shall have Three Pounds Reward and reasonable Charges, paid by Thomas Rees.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 05:17:29 PM by Eric Kettenburg »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Earliest known "smooth rifle"
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2010, 06:22:35 PM »
Thank you Gentlement.  I will get the book.  And good point, rifled that were rebored to smooth.  Then...how do you really know?

Again, thank you.

How do we know? An excellent question because we just don't in many cases...
Couple of things to consider. And please note much of this is my considered opinion and may be at odds with others here. Its simply a way of looking at the subject of smooth rifles.
 Many of today's smooth rifles are over 50-52 caliber and some significantly over.
American rifles of the rev-war era were seldom over 50 caliber at least from what can be read from the time, or at least what I can find (?). This is indicated by John Joseph Henry's account of going to Quebec as one of Morgan's Riflemen, the surviving rifles that were taken to England as war trophy's and souvenirs that likely saw less use than rifles that staid in the US and the comments of Col. Hanger, a British officer and one of the most experienced rifleman in England. Hanger stated he never saw an American Rifle over 36 to the pound, about 52 caliber.
We have a late 1760s/early 1770s Resor in 42 caliber in "Steel Canvas". We have several rifles that are in or have returned from England in "Rifles of Colonial America" #48 the apparently early Dickert that went England in 50 caliber, we have the battlefield pickup Thomas Rifle #121 in 48 caliber, the Oerter rifle in 44 smooth # 44, this is apparently a true smooth rifle in that it was so described as such about 1800.  J.J. Henry buying a used 48 caliber rifle to replace the one he lost in a river which from his description was probably (?) larger than the rifle he lost.
Were ALL rifles under 50-52 caliber. Of course not. See RCA #18 and #41 for examples though #41 at least appears to have been recut at least once having wrench tracks on the tang.  Rifles that were heavily used were often recut as the bore wore or corroded. This was a fairly simple operation but its well documented in Bailey's book, in "The Journals of Lewis and Clark" and other places.

Rifles in good condition that staid in the US are suspect even if they show little wear. A number of these were freshed or bored and re-rifled in the early 20th century to improve their accuracy by people like Walter Cline. Bill Large recut old barrels as well as making them. So there were shootable Kentuckys in flint that were made significantly larger in the 20th century.
For all we know some smooth rifles were later rifled for shooters.
So while there were oviously smooth rifles when we see one with a very large bore, over 58 I consider it suspect.
It would appear from the writings of the time that smooth bores got little respect by the, people on the frontier at least, by the 1780s or so . But of course we can only read what someone wrote down and most people of the time didn't do a lot of journaling.

Dan
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Offline Salkehatchie

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Re: Earliest known "smooth rifle"
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2010, 02:20:19 AM »
Sounds very reasonable.  And tracks with what I have always heard.

So...it would be safe to assume that before the F & I there were either rifled guns or smoothbore fowlers.  Later, many guns were bored out some into lareger caliber rifled guns, some...into smooth bore rifles.  And some few guns were actually originally crafted as smoothbore rifles.

Thank you.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Earliest known "smooth rifle"
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2010, 04:08:00 AM »
Keep in mind that if a barrel was freshed several times and then bored out to smoothbore, they'd need a new breechplug.  So if there is no evidence a ..54 to .58 caliber smoothbore barrel was re-breeched, I can't believe it was once a .45 rifle.  Can't be done w/o a new breechplug.  I think the idea that large bore smooth rifles were once much smaller bored and rifled is over-sold because of these breeching facts of life.

If we want to apply reasoning to interpreting rifles, let's go all the way and not just rely on "smoothbores are not as good as rifles".
Andover, Vermont

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Earliest known "smooth rifle"
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2010, 10:24:13 AM »
Keep in mind that if a barrel was freshed several times and then bored out to smoothbore, they'd need a new breechplug.  So if there is no evidence a ..54 to .58 caliber smoothbore barrel was re-breeched, I can't believe it was once a .45 rifle.  Can't be done w/o a new breechplug.  I think the idea that large bore smooth rifles were once much smaller bored and rifled is over-sold because of these breeching facts of life.

If we want to apply reasoning to interpreting rifles, let's go all the way and not just rely on "smoothbores are not as good as rifles".

Lots of 58 rifle muskets were bored to 20 gauge and seem to have the original plugs.
And from reading Baileys book making new breech plugs was often part of the repair on a rifle. So how would one know 200 years later that the plug was replaced? By this time it would look just like it was put there by the original maker.
Pg 77 "British Military Flintlock Rifles" about 1760

Peter (the natives name)

New stock 12/-
Mounting 12/-
Gun lock 8/6
New Rifling 10/-
bullet mould, wiper & charger 6/
a new Britch 3/
Trigger and trigger plate and cleaning the barrel 5/-
Mending his gun 6/-

John Logan also got "a new Britch for his Gunn 3/-"
along with some other repairs such as "casehardening the steel 9d".

Then "... eight Indians having their barrels newly rifled for 10/-"

On the same page "What is particularly interesting about these official Pennsylvania store records is that neither trade gun or fowling piece appears to have crossed the counters."
This was Shamokin and Ft Augusta. Again 1760-1762.
There are smooth rifles in stock at the Ohio companies Rock Creek establishment in 1757.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Salkehatchie

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Re: Earliest known "smooth rifle"
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2010, 05:00:27 PM »
Eric; 1737 wow!  Very interesting.

Rich, good point.  Got to have all the facts.  Never thought of the breech plug.

Now Rich, "Ohio Companies Rock Creek establishment 1757".  What location was that?

Again, and as always - thank you.

Salkehatchie


Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Earliest known "smooth rifle"
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2010, 11:16:55 PM »
..., "Ohio Companies Rock Creek establishment 1757".  What location was that?

There was a long thread in the fall of 2008 about this document listing Indian Trade goods inventoried at Rock Creek but I'm not sure how the topic was started so I don't know what to tell you to look under.


Lists of Indian Goods at Rock Creek— John Nash, December 1756
[Rock Creek is a little to the north of Centerville, Fairfax Co. VA on the direct road to Williams Gap]

[CUT FROM A LONG LIST]
Small Bar Lead--@ 18\3 --

Gun-powder--all Sold --

abt. 2 dozn. fusee Guns proved Barrells @ 14\--very good at the price but rather
larger Bows [Bores] than those commonly used in the Indian Trade ; they wou'd answer very well for a Bullet & Shot & believe wou'd suit the Southern Indians ; as I have been told they do not use a single Bullett so much as the Northern Indians

at Mr. Chapmans   abt. 1 dozn. 4. ft. square barrell'd Guns very small Bores best
Iron mounted & stock'd like Rippells [rifles], a Bullet Mould to each. @ 27\6

abt. 1 dozn. Rippells 4. ft. Barrells, best Iron _ Bullet Mould to each @ 41\6

Gun flints all sold --
...



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