Just made a big mistake!

[Dennis Glazener]

I have heard of folks making similar mistakes and always wondered "how did they manage to do that"? Now that I made a big mistake I wonder how did I manage to do that!

I am building an American/English fowler with 44 inch Colerain 16 ga barrel. I laid out all my barrel hangers and decided before I quit for the day that I would make and install the one on the oct part of the barrel. I made the hanger, cut the dovetail and it was not quite as tight as I like so I soldered it then "staked" it at each corner with a center punch. Its there tight as a tick. Ate supper and came back to inlet it into the stock. Blackened the bottom of the hanger, dropped barrel in the channel and then realized I had a strange rear sight!!!!!!

There it sits, 7.5 inches from the breech, too close for a rear sight to go in its stead. I thought of fabricating some type of rear sight but its located at a weird distance. Thought of a silver plate with my initials there but the sides are exposed unlike the way a plate should be inlaid. The best I can come up with is a plain blank filler and hope the metal matches when finished. The dovetails are .045" deep.

Anyone with other suggestions? And no I am not replacing the barrel!
Dennis

[bgf]

Once filled, could it be a sight that's too far back because the barrel has been cut?  You are a good man to put this out there -- make it work and go on.

[KLMoors]

How long is your breech plug?  Have you drilled your touch hole yet? Could you re-fit the breech plug so the lug ends up on the bottom.

[KLMoors]

Another option would be to lengthen the dovetail, make a filler, and then inlet the silver into the filler for your name. Leave a small border of steel around the filler and if it shows it might even look like you meant to do it that way!

[bgf]

Also, depending on how wide it is, maybe go all the way around the barrel and pour some pewter in it.  Sorry, I love these situations -- its either love them or quit trying to build stuff for me .

[g.pennell]

I agree with Cpt. Fred...re-fit the breech to put your lug where it goes. 

[wvmtnman]

I would go the route of making it look like there was a rear sight there at one time.  Fill it in with a piece of silver or brass and finishing as normal.
      Or, you could even go so far as to make it look like the barrel was shortened by misplacing the front ram rod pipe and barrel tennon by three inches or so and then maybe experiment with aging the finished piece.  
   I would not let it mess up your day, you'll figure something out.
                                                                           Brian

[Dennis Glazener]

How long is your breech plug?  Have you drilled your touch hole yet? Could you re-fit the breech plug so the lug ends up on the bottom.

Yes that would be an easy fix. Touch hole not drilled BUT I have a nice groove across the bottom flat where the front lock bolt had to go to miss the RR groove. Also the Colerain stamping are on the bottom flat.

So far Capt Fred's idea of a steel filler with a silver plate in it sounds the most logical.

Then again I would love a rear sight, maybe one of those strange looking rear  sights like James Rogers posted photos of the other day. James, any idea where a rear fowler sight would be in relation to the breech?

[Dennis Glazener]

I would go the route of making it look like there was a rear sight there at one time.  Fill it in with a piece of silver or brass and finishing as normal.
      Or, you could even go so far as to make it look like the barrel was shortened by misplacing the front ram rod pipe and barrel tennon by three inches or so and then maybe experiment with aging the finished piece. 
   I would not let it mess up your day, you'll figure something out.
                                                                           Brian
   

But remember this is an English fowler not a rifle or smooth rifle. I have an Oct to Round 16 ga barrel. Very few had rear sights.
Dennis

[wvmtnman]

I must have missed that part.  Any way to draw the breech plug in so that bottom barrel flat would be the new top barrel flat?  If that is not a possibility, you could make a very clean fitting steel plug and brown the barrel.
   I would personally try to turn the plug a half turn then draw fill all the barrel markings off.
                                                                  Brian

[Dave Dolliver]

Dennis:

I put a front sight on the shoulder flat of an octagonal barrel once--on the state champions gun, no less.  he was quite forgiving.   I made a steel filler for the dovetail and draw filed it flush with the barrel surface after inserted.
After browning it was hard to pick out.  You will need a rather thick, non-shiny barrel finish.

Dave Dolliver

[huckfinn]

My 20 gauge Clerain has a snake rear sight from the log cabin shop.  Right about where you described.   The front sight is a simple turtle.  
The gun is for deer and turkey.  I know it might not be exactly correct but it works for me.  Try the sight, if you don't like it....you can always change it.  The inlay idea is good too.  Refitting the breech would work and you could draw file the name off the barrel.  Good luck!  By the way, where did you get a 16 gauge Colerain barrel?   Now how do you turn off this darn over type mode?

[Don Getz]

Dennis..........I think you said you "staked" the corners, therefore you have a few dimples to deal with.   If it were mine, I
would lengthen the dovetail to eliminate those dimples and then fit a piece of steel, tightly, into that slot, draw file it off
flush and live with it.   If you brown the barrel I don't think it will show very much.....you might be the only one that knows
it is there.    I had a friend who was a well known gunmaker did the same thing you did.....almost.   Had this great Jager
almost finished, was fitting the front sight........cut the sight dovetail on one of the side oblique flats.   He was in a panic,
needed a new barrel right away.   I put the barrel into the milling machine and re-cut the dovetail with a dovetail cutter,
then made an insert by cutting the edges of the piece with the dovetail cutter so that the angles would be the same.  I
then drove it into the dovetail slot, trimmed it off and drawfiled it.......disappeared.    I then cut a new dovetail on the
proper flat for him..............saved the day...............Don

[Ken G]

Dennis,
I've made a similar mistake but more like Don's description.  I was one flat off on one barrel lug.  After stomping around and kicking myself in the butt for about an hour I set about fixing it.  I cut a piece of steel to fit, carefully fit it to the dovetail and peened it in.  Once the barrel was drawfiled and browned I couldn't find it. 
Cheers,
Ken

[Rasch Chronicles]

Gents,

If you want to rid yourself of the misplaced dovetail, I like Kens idea best. When building steel bodied planes, the dovetails pins are peened quite vigorouly until the steel is sufficiently upset to fill the dovetails.

I would suggest that the same process be applied in this case. Widen the dovetail slightly on each side to create a slight hourglass effect, and then peen the new pin (filler piece) until it fills the dovetail. Obviously, you will have to back the pin in some fashion to peen each side.  Drawfile and sand smooth, and challenge you will find it even in the white! Since the dovetail slot is shallow, be caeful to upset the steel the long ways as much as possible.

I did a little searching and found the following: Metal Plane Making  This explains dovetailing far better than I can!

I hope this is of some help!

Best Regards,
Albert A Rasch
Albert A Rasch In Afghanistan

[Rasch Chronicles]

Here is another site How I did my practice dovetails

I'm sure there are other BP applications for the process.

Best Regards,
Albert A Rasch
Albert A Rasch In Afghanistan

[Dphariss]

Make a tight filler and do some peaning and filing and polishing. If you have a piece of steel of the same alloy so much the better.
I have heard there is a lever gun out there someplace with a forend hanger dovetail in the wrong place but its hard to see since the guy had a piece of barrel around to cut the filler from and it colored the same. Measure twice and still cut in the wrong place
Or so I hear...

Bang head on door jam, bite rocks etc etc.
I have had a couple of minor panic attacks when I could not remember if I put the barrel in the mill right side up or wrong side. So far I have been lucky.
I have taken to marking the top  or bottom flat with red or blue felt tip marker when preparing to do such things.

Dan

[rsells]

Dennis,
I have let myself get talked into doing two restocks of rifles built in the late 70's this year, and have had to move the rear sights forward on both rifles so the customers could see the sight picture better.  In both instances (Bill Large barrels), I recut the old dovetail to clean the edges up and made a slug to go in place.  I made the slugs out of a scrap piece of 1 1/8 inch Douglas barrel that was cut off during a Hawken build.  I made a snug fit and pinged the edges before draw filing the slug/barrel flats to the correct profile.  They were not visible when finished.   

Also, I restored an original flint English fowler a few years ago, and it had a rear sight in place.  It looked like it was original.  It was 9 inches from the breech, but I could still see the sights when put to the shoulder.  From this time forward, I haven't thought it to be out of place to put some type of rear sight in place on a fowler.

Good luck with your work.
                                                    Roger Sells


                                                                         

[AMartin]

When you have a lemons , make lemonade !!!!
Since you can't spin the barrel and refit the plug ...... fill the dovetail with a tight piece of metal and peen & polish you won't even see it ......

I would build a aged rifle and make it look like the rear sight was slid forward ....... and make sure you could see the repair !!!! like most old guns !!

Allen

[ERH]

i think i would do as don said. have some one with a mill cut a new dove tail slot taking out any marks and making a new filler peace to fit exactly . I think i would try to make it out of the same kind of steel as the barrel was made from for the best chance of hiding with the browning process. if you cant find someone to do it for u i know a guy that will probably do it for u

[Dennis Glazener]

Thanks to all of you, guess I was just frustrated with what I did, first time doing it. I think I am going to recut the dovetail a little larger to clean up the dimples then try to find a piece of the same alloy steel to make a plug. Then peen it and file it smooth. If that looks too bad (doubt it will) I will make some type of silver plate to go there.

I have some 4140 and 4150 steel, anyone know what steel Colerain is using?

Thanks, knew I would get good advice from the members!
Dennis

[paxtonboy]

Im going to suggest what others have said earlier, use a medalion with your name.  I know your worried of the sides of the dovetail will show, just make the medalion larger and after it is in place, peen it down so it drapes over the sides of the top flat and covers the dovetail cut. Scott

[James Rogers]

Dennis,

From a mechanical and construction point of view you have chosen a super fix to hide your mistake but since you asked me I want to post another possible option that could allow you to proceed as it was intended.

Most of those wrap around wing sights you mentioned I have seen were on German and Spanish pieces so I would not consider them for your particular build. As far as distance though, there seems to be quite a few of those wings sitting about 7" from the breech on a lot of them I am seeing in my picture collection. While looking, I even found RIFLE sights on a de La Chalemette park rifle and a Mortimer rifle that were only about 4" from the breech. Of course these are pictures and I am basing on lock measurements to get an estimate.

I do not think 7.5" is too close for a winged type sighting groove as the standard English standing breeches had their groove directly on the breech.

 I would direct you to this post  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4828.0 concerning a dug English trade gun with a winged sight. You can get an idea from the pictures of the distance this thing was from the breech. I believe James Levy stated that the gun had 3 different sight placements on the barrel but the transition rings from octagon to round were 11 1/4" from the breech.

Since you are doing an English styled but American made fowling piece, this may be an option for you. I will send you a few pictures of some other recovered sights in better condition. You can get an idea of the dovetail bottom from a side profile shot found in The Rifle Shoppe catalog. Fairly simple construction that can winged it out fully like the one in the link above or a finer groove for more of a rifle sighting style.

James

[KLMoors]

James, I know this is a touchy subject, and this is just my own opinion, but, I think you overdid it a just a little bit aging that gun in the bottom pic.

[Jim Kibler]

Dennis,

Most of those wrap around wing sights you mentioned I have seen were on German and Spanish pieces so I would not consider them for your particular build. As far as distance though, there seems to be quite a few of those wings sitting about 7" from the breech on a lot of them I am seeing in my picture collection. While looking, I even found RIFLE sights on a de La Chalemette park rifle and a Mortimer rifle that were only about 4" from the breech. Of course these are pictures and I am basing on lock measurements to get an estimate.

James,

You always seem to forget about the French!  These  winged sights were very typical on French guns from the second half of the 17th century.  I would speculate they developed this system.  Check out Lenk's book.  Many if not most of the long guns have this feature.  I'm starting to think you have something against the French

Jim