Author Topic: Soddy Daisy question  (Read 10297 times)

Offline Ken G

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Soddy Daisy question
« on: January 12, 2011, 01:33:51 AM »
Has anyone ever seen another rifle with the little round stamp just behind the lock bolt?  All three of the rifles pictured are Soddy rifles.  2 of the photos are not that detailed but they do simingly have a round mark of some sort in about the same spot.  
Any help or even speculation on what it is would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Ken





« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 01:51:31 AM by Ken Guy »
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billd

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Re: Soddy Daisey question
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2011, 01:42:04 AM »
Looks like a daisy.   ;D

Offline bgf

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Re: Soddy Daisey question
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2011, 01:56:43 AM »
How about a store stamp?  Big general or hardware stores would often stamp their names on products even with the makers name already on them.  It was important in those days, both for advertising (and I suppose to prevent theft) and so people could tell the general quality (by the reputation of the store) before national brands -- this could be some sort of logo from the "retailer" of the rifles?  Just a wild guess.  Curious myself.  If you are close to Soddy-Daisy, you could ask some of the older guys -- there might just be a few left who would know what it was.  Those are nice, simple well-made rifles by the looks of it.

Offline WElliott

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2011, 02:09:22 AM »
Ken, I like the previous responses, but wonder if you know whether these three rifles were made by different smiths or, perhaps, made in the same shop.  All I see, of course is the offside panel but the lock bolt plates are similar, although I can see that the guards are different. 
Wayne Elliott

Offline Ken G

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2011, 02:42:26 AM »
The store stamp sounds plausible.  I was wondering if it might be some mark associated with home guard or militia during the civil war.

Wayne,
The first gun is unattributed.  The second is a signed Clement.  The third is unknown.    The guards on #2 and #3 are similar and have a split rod grip rail, but very unlike #1.  WIthout a doubt they are all in the Soddy school but I believe by different smiths. 

Cheers,
Ken
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Offline Sequatchie Rifle

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2011, 12:04:34 AM »
Ken, I've seen two rifle this year bearing the same stamp.  I spent a couple of hours last night going through my rifles and my photos and can't find them again.  I have no idea what it could be.  Surely some of the old timers have ideas?
"We fight not for glory, nor riches nor honors, but for freedom alone, which no good man gives up except with his life. Declaration of Arbroath, 1320

Offline Ken G

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2011, 03:11:28 AM »
I sure appreciate you looking.  I hope the photos will resurface.  I'd like to at least lock it down to a maker or just geographic area. 

Thanks,
Ken
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Offline LynnC

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2011, 08:14:27 AM »
The stamping itself in one of the pics looks like a sunburst type of blacksmiths touch mark commonly seen on early 1800s and older items.....Lynn
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Offline woodsrunner

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2011, 05:53:34 PM »
Ken, just got off the phone with my friend from home (Blairsville, Ga.), Billy Harkins, who has what James Levy and I THINK is a Soddy rifle. It has no circular stamp like you are asking about. Billy also has photos of another rifle that is in Blairsville, owned by another friend, that we THINK is may be a Daddy Kress rifle since it has all of the characteristics and is stamped on the barrel J.K. This rifle doesn't have the circular stamp either. I'd like to email you photos of the first mentioned rifle for your opinion if you have time to look at it. I'm not computer savvy enough to put the photos on the Board.

Offline Ken G

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2011, 05:56:47 PM »
email sent
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Offline james spears

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2011, 03:23:09 AM »
I have a Soddy Daisy rifle with the stamp, also.  The stamp is very worn, no name on the rifle, and the barrel is very worn.  Patch box, trigger guard, and architecture look like the Clement rifle on page 52, Volume 3 of Jerry Noble's book.  The Soddy on page 54, Volume 3 may also have a stamp. 

I think there may also be a stamp on the  Enoch Hardin rifle page 113, Volume 2 of Noble's book.

Offline Ken G

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2011, 04:06:15 AM »
Wow!  Any chance of you sending me a picture?  I'll post it on the board if you don't care. 
Ken
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Offline james spears

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2011, 04:44:28 AM »
Yes, may take a little time. Will get my Daughter to help me.

Offline Ken G

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2011, 05:34:09 PM »
James was kind enough to send this picture.  Sure looks like the same or similar mark to me.  WIthout seeing other photos it hard to tell about the maker but it doesn't look to be from the same guy that built mine.
Ken



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Offline Don Getz

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2011, 05:54:12 PM »
To those of you in the know.   I am not a student of southern mountain rifles.    I have always wondered, what is a
"Soddy" rifle.   Were they made in a certain area, is it just a type of gun, or what?   I have never heard of these types of
rifles being classified, or put into "schools" like Penna. rifles.  I'm just curious...........Don

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2011, 06:11:59 PM »
Ken,
This is very interesting to me.  I have talked to a few guys who know quite a bit about Iron Mounted Southern Rifles, and they told me that there were a lot of unknowns when it comes to these rifles.  I know that a lot of these rifles didn't survive to see the 21st century.  It really surprising that there are 4 examples of this mark (in this thread) and it's unknown as to its origin or meaning.  Glad to see that you and others are still digging and trying to find answers.

Offline Ken G

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2011, 06:29:29 PM »
Hi Don. The term Soddy Daisy or Soddy rifle refers to a style of E. TN rifle made in an area about 20 miles northeast of Chattanooga, TN.  Rifles from this area have very ditinctive architecture that is different from Upper E. TN rifles.  I attached a link for anyone interested.

The towns of Soddy and Daisy weren't really combined into one city until about 1969 but that should give you an idea of how close together they were.  The area was settled in the very early 1800s. 

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10960.0
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Offline Ken G

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2011, 06:48:57 PM »
GHall,
There's lot still to learn about the Southern builders.  The late Robin Hale said he had documented over 500 TN gunsmiths and 50 that were building rifle prior to 1800.   Unfortunately these rifles were either very utilitarian and got used up or destroyed during the occupation of the South during the civil war.  Nor do they have the glitz and glamor of the PA rifles so not as much research has been done.
There are rifles still out there as proved last year by the Bean on display at the Norris show. 
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angus

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2011, 06:48:58 AM »
Ken,
Quite the interesting question and strange that it shows up on so many different rifles.

Is the mark on top or under the finish? Maybe hard to tell after this many years of handling.
Could the mark be a stamp that was acquired at a log shoot signifying their presence at one event?
It would be even more of a treat to find the original stamp. Probably got made into a center punch, a nail drift or is still buried in some family toolbox in the back of the wood shed.

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2011, 06:53:01 PM »
Thanks Ken.    I had no idea that there were towns by the name of "Soddy", or "Daisy".    I had often heard Ron Borron
talk about a Soddy Daisy gun, but had no idea of what that really meant.   I always thought of these southern mountain
rifles as being built, basically, by poor people.   They were forging parts from almost any old things they could turn up.
It's amazing  what they built under such crude conditions............Don

Offline Sequatchie Rifle

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2011, 11:58:13 PM »
Don Soddy Daisy is just over the mountain from Ken and about 20 miles from my ancestrial home.  Ain't much there!
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Offline JTR

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2011, 09:27:06 PM »
I know a guy that used to live there, and still goes there to visit inlaws. He says the place is just a collection of trailer trash for the most part. :(
I asked him to keep his eyes open for rifles anyway!
John
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Offline Ken G

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2019, 03:53:48 AM »
I'd like to resurrect this thread if I could.  Lots of new members that may be able to shed some light on what the round stamp on some Soddy rifles might be. Please see the pictures I posted.  All comments and are welcome.

Cheers,
Ken
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Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2019, 08:23:35 PM »
Ken,

I don't have any info on the Soddy's, but wanted to say Hi and Where the h--- have you been?  Glad you're back.

-Ron
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Offline Arnie Dowd

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Re: Soddy Daisy question
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2019, 11:21:48 PM »
Ken -  Very interesting thread and new info.  I've had a John Clement's (Sr.) classic Soddy/Daisy rifle (stamped J. C.) for over 45 yrs and it has the same, round stamp and with a lighted glass I can see two of the small indents on the perimeter.  Honestly I had never noticed it and if I had I most likely thought it to be a dent but to be that almost perfectly round someone would have had to hit square on with a ball-peen hammer.  Hopefully there is an answer.  I phoned Jerry Noble, who many of you know and he was unaware of such a mark/stamp and will check the four Soddy rifles he still has.  Ken - as you know the two Clements, father (Sr. 1819 to 1875 prox) and son (Jr. 1841-1896) along with Enoch Hardin probably made what we think of as the most classic Soddy/Daisy rifle and they are unique.  According to Jerry if they are stamped "J. C." the rifle is thought to be by Sr. and if stamped "J. W. C." or With the full last name "Clement" the rifle is thought to be by the son.  In 1850 Sr. is listed as a Blacksmith and Jr. is 10 yrs old.  By the 1860 census they are in the same household and both listed as a Gunsmith.  In 1880 Jr. is still listed as a gunsmith.  Jr. served in Co I of the 2nd Tenn Union 12/1861 to 10/1862, saw basically no action and was released for medical reasons and is buried in Hughes Cemetery in Bakewell in Hamilton County so they never went far.  His grave stone lists only his name and military service info.  Now that's probably more "Clement" info than anyone wanted !  but Thank You Ken for bringing to light this new detail as this is what's fun.  Now for an answer.  Arnie Dowd