Non-traditional foreend cap and trigger guard material?

[Naphtali]

I am not enthusiatic about brass or cast lead as foreend cap or [brass] trigger guard material. I have seen photographs of flintlocks having horn and ebony as foreend cap, and sometimes trigger guard, material.

Has anyone attempted to use materials such as black: linen/paper Micarta®; Lexan®; or the graphite composite used by some custom knifemakers? With what result? When appropriately finished, these materials may??? so closely resemble natural material that their enhanced stability and durability may render them competitive choices?

I'm not telling; I'm asking.

[greybeard]

I have never built a copy of any particular rifle because I have never held one let alone seen one up close so what I build is from pictures and imagination. That being said I try ti use correct materials for whatever I am building. For example brass iron ansd silver on a Pensylvania gu If i were to build a Yeager I would consider horn appropiate for nose cap but never micarta or any plastics. Thats my opinion for what it's worth. Like I read on a previous posting "Opinions are like a*# holes. Every body has one
    Cheers   Bob

[Dave B]

The wood trigger guards I have seen on the Germanic guns seem to have been on fowling type pieces. I think there are a few rifles with them as well. I believe that these were the property of the well to do and not the common man. The ones I have held have had numbers on their tangs indicating a set of pieces that could be given to the guests for hunting on the estates. These were kept in arms closets or Armories and tended to regularly.  They saw no rough service as the arms of the common man in the Americas and had they been brought here and used as the long-rifles were. It is not likely they would have survived with the wood guards intact.

You can make your project from what ever you want to but to what end. It would certainly be a novelty to build it with those materials and be water proof if you use a composite stock, with stainless barrel and lock. I have not worked with Micarta but I am not sure how it will hold up if cut out like one of the regular wood Jaeger guards were. One must then ask why do we chose to even make these works of art as we do. We could have a mold made up and have it injected molded with composite for the whole thing.  To each his own. 

I got into this because I love the making of things in a more traditional manor. The more authentic the better. I will get to the place of making my whole rifle from scratch, screws and all some day. That to me is the highest level of gun making achievement.

[Rasch Chronicles]

Nap,

Shhhhh! Remember what happened to that guy that wanted to glue to pieces of wood together? They moved him over to the fence forum!

Carbon composite! They'll send the HC police after you!

LOL!!! (Quietly...)
Best Regards,
Albert A Rasch In Afghanistan™
Scouting for Hogs, Chronicles Style!

[KLMoors]

LOL.

Were those wood trigger guards completely carved or was there some steaming and bending involved. It seems one carved out of a single piece of wood would be real fragile.?

[Acer Saccharum]

The intent of this site is the study of the American Longrifle. What most of us do here is to make replicas or copies of originals, and try to keep within the bounds of what construction would be realistic for the time of the original rifle.

You're surely not going to be yelled at for making something out of space age materials, but it's not the right forum. You just won't get the support for what you're doing, because it's out of place. One might feel they are being snubbed or treated poorly, but it's like playing Elvis tunes at high mass and being *#)*^~ off that the congregation doesn't like it. This is not meant unkindly at all, I'm just pointing out what the intent of the site is.

[Acer Saccharum]

The guards I have seen are from one piece of wood, but separate from the stock. The guard comes off to access the double set triggers. Often there is an inlet band of reinforcing metal on the outer surface of the guard.

[Dan'l 1946]

[quote author=Naphtali link=topic=14089.msg132590#msg132590 date=1295204280
     Has anyone attempted to use materials such as black: linen/paper Micarta®; Lexan®; or the graphite composite used by some custom knifemakers?
[/quote]
  Pedersoli has used man-made material on their "jaeger" rifle. Don't know as that should be construed as a recommendation, though.
 
  Real ebony and horn are available and seem to do the job quite well--often for centuries.
                                     Dan

[whitebear]

A friend has an original percussion double in beautifully figured walnut with a partial wood triggerguard, the front extension that connects to the stock, the back extension and the section at the back of the bow between the bow and the grip rail are beautifully carved walnut.  The bow and griprails are iron or steel with a dark blue almost black finish.  If he will let me I will get some pictures and post them.

LOL.

Were those wood trigger guards completely carved or was there some steaming and bending involved. It seems one carved out of a single piece of wood would be real fragile.?

[msw]

As 'wild and crazy' as i ever got was putting African Bloodwood as an inlay.  While  i will be the first to concede the non-PC/HCness of this manifest deviation from the norm, it was a rifle i was building for myself, and i think it looks pretty cool in a gaudy & vulgar sort of way.

I can't see myself using plastics, though.  It would strike me as too much like putting a carbon fiber handle on a Paul Revere style teapot.

One guy's free opinion, and no doubt worth every penny.

[caliber45]

Sorry, folks, but I can't resist: As long as we're discussing "modernizing" muzzleloaders (ie., micarta triggerguards), let's consider this: How 'bout we ask Don Getz, Green Mountain and the other barrel folks if they could inscribe a "safety warning" on octagonal barrels. Half-inch letters, about mid-barrel -- and, so's we don't inadvertently cover the warning with the forend -- on EVERY flat: "WARNING: BLACK POWDER ONLY!!!!!! Then, so a novice is sure not to miss the warning, fill in the stampings with modern neon-orange paint. Whatcha think? -- paulallen, tucson az

[T*O*F]

So sue me!!

I've used black and ivory piano keys AND black and ivory micarta for inlays.
You can't tell the difference without an electron microscope.

[Majorjoel]

Here is an example of wood being used for trigger guard. I do not think that in certain areas of the Germanic lands it was all that rare of a material. Horn was quite common for guards and nose caps well into the percussion era. 

[bob in the woods]

" Elvis at High Mass"  ...I haven't laughed that hard in a while!  Good analogy though. Since I do the music at our church, perhaps I'll give it a try one day

[bjmac]

Along this topic, I also wonder if other metals (copper, aluminum etc) were ever used in castings and inlays?

[whitebear]

Copper pennies have been used as sight bases.

[paxtonboy]

aluminium was a rare mineral at that time.  It was so rare that it was used as the top "stone" of the Washington monument.  The Congress thought silver and platinum was too pedestrian.  Scott

[Dale Campbell]

I did a nose cap of bone from a cow shin.  It sort of stuck out as too bright.

[keweenaw]

The are lots of jaegers with horn and wood guards and horn is frequently used for foreend tips on jaegers.  One could argue that if you used a wood or horn guard on an otherwise American piece that the item was recycled.  As for aluminum, we ofter forget that until the 1930's aluminum was a very expensive material as it takes lots of cheap electricity to refine it.  The cap on the Washington Monument is aluminum and was considered an exotically expensive part.  Zinc casings, on the other hand, go way back but lack real strength.

Tom

[Roger Fisher]

Ol George Dech (Bath, Pa)  taken by Cancer.  Had built a long rifle and all the hardware cept the lock trikker and barrel was done in horn and bone.  Its been like a hundred years since I handled that piece so details lacking; but I do recall the guard was quite heavy/thick!

No clue what ever happened to that rifle.  He had built well over 300 in his time!

[Pete G.]

I think Fred Stutzenberger had an article in "Muzzle Blasts" about pouring a muzzle cap with black acura glas and ended up with a good replication of horn. Frankly horn is so readily available and easily worked that I wonder why bother, just go with the real stuff. As far as wooden trigger guards go, they became obsolete for a good reason, but for a display gun they might be OK.

[FL-Flintlock]

Hey Tom,

Just a little FYI, ole Elvis did sing a lot of gospel music so depending on the selection, and geographic location of said church, the congregation may not necessarily be upset.

As for trigger guards on other-than ALR's, I have seen many different styles, some made from a separate piece of wood which may or may not be the same as the stock wood, some with full/partial metal reinforcement, some without metal and some carved right into the stock blank (all one piece of wood).  As with anything else, to maintain HC/PC would require a lot of research as a lot changes depending on geographic location.

As for messing with other-than natural materials ... yes, it can be done and sometimes to the point where it'll fool most people but one must also consider the cost verses the costs ... real ivory inlay may cost less in time and materials than manufacturing a suitable synthetic facsimile, in other cases large enough pieces of real ivory may not be available and therefore the material and labor costs to manufacture synthetic may become cost effective or the only alternative.

About the aluminum pyramid atop the Washington Monument.
Aluminum was not the first choice for the pyramid, nor did the choice involve any material design evaluation, extensive tests, or lengthy comparative competition among available materials. Instead, aluminum was selected as an alternative material during discussions between the engineer in charge of the project, Colonel Thomas Lincoln Casey US Army Corps of Engineers, and William Frishmuth, Frishmuth's foundry Philadelphia PA, the only U.S. aluminum producer at that time.  Casey requested Frishmuth make a metal pyramid out of copper, bronze, or brass, plated with platinum so as not to tarnish and to serve as the lightning rod.  Frishmuth suggested aluminum offering a quote of $75 but allowed for an alternative aluminum-bronze alloy plated with gold at a quote of $50 just in case he could not get a perfect casting of aluminum.  On November 12, 1884 Frishmuth telegrammed Casey advising the aluminum pyramid had been completed with South Carolina Corundum.  The final cost was billed at $256.10, an auditor was dispatched resulting in the final price of $225.00  The 3,300 pound solid marble capstone and 100 ounce inscribed aluminum pyramid 5.6" at the base and 8.9" tall were set on December 6, 1884.

Inscriptions on aluminum pyramid

East face: Laus Deo (Latin: Praise be to God)

North face:
Joint Commission at Setting of Capstone
Chester A. Arthur
W. W. Corcoran
Chairman M. E. Bell
Edward Clark
John Newton
Act of August 2, 1876

West face:
Corner Stone Laid on Bed of Foundation
July 4, 1848
First Stone at Height of 152 feet laid
August 7, 1880
Capstone set December 6, 1884

South face:
Chief Engineer and Architect,
Thos. Lincoln Casey,
Colonel, Corps of Engineers
Assistants:
George W. Davis,
Captain, 14th Infantry
Bernard R. Green,
Civil Engineer
Master Mechanic
P. H. McLaughlin