Author Topic: confused  (Read 9829 times)

caliber45

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confused
« on: January 19, 2011, 11:13:32 PM »
I'm confused. It was my understanding that as a patched ball leaves the muzzle, it is propelled in a rising arc, upward in that arc at a certain level at about 25 yards, and then returning downward to the same level in that arc at about 50 yards -- thereby enabling sighting-in at 25 yards with an expectation of hitting at the same level (if not group) at about 50 yards. Is the ball traveling in an upward arc because the sights tilt the barrel slightly upward to begin with, or is there upward movement of the ball even though the sight-line and bore are parallel with each other? My brother tells me the laws of physics dictate that a ball leaving a barrel will never fly higher than the level of the bore, so the only arc after the ball leaves the muzzle is downward. Clarification, pls? -- paulallen, tucson az

Offline Shovelbuck

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Re: confused
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2011, 11:38:22 PM »
Your brother is correct.
I don't hunt the hard way, I hunt a simpler way.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: confused
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2011, 11:57:32 PM »
Paul, I agree...your brother is correct.  The ball leaves the muzzle and immediately is acted on by gravity...it drops.  However, to compensate for this the sights incline the bore relative to the target.  In other words, the bore is inclined relative to the line of the sights.  It is possible, as in your scenario, that the ball will pass through the centre of the 25 yd. bull, continue to rise relative to the line of sight, and then drop back though the 50 yd. bulls-eye.
All of this will depend upon a number of factors, ie:  height of the sights from the bore, velocity of the ball, etc.  What ever the distance to the target, where the ball rises to the line of sight, is called, as far as I am aware, the "point blank" range.  My brother Daryl was a lot of detailed info regarding this subject, and can provide much more detail that will be useful when sighting in your rifle.

Take it away, Daryl!
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline bgf

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Re: confused
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2011, 12:01:43 AM »
Depending on how you want to use the terms, I'd say you are both right.  The ball does travel above the level , i.e. height, of the bore because the barrel is elevated at an angle.  Think artillery -- the range is adjusted by varying the angle of the barrel (roughly).  While not as severe an angle, your sights work to do the same thing.  The ball starts just below the line of sight, passes above it at short range, then passes below it at some longer range.  The ball does not however travel above the line  of the bore, if we define that as an imaginary line going through the center of the bore extending to infinity, because gravity begins drawing it away from that line as soon as it leaves the bore. 

caliber45

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Re: confused
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2011, 08:17:08 AM »
Thanks, guys. It makes sense. I just had "arc" stuck in my brain, and forgot the physics. -- paulallen, tucson az

Daryl

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Re: confused
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2011, 08:56:12 PM »
BGF - in a round-about way, you've said exactly the same thing as cal. 45's brother, and mine, and Shovelbuck, except your first statement is incorrect, then clarified with the next.  This might cause confusion.  The ball starts to drop the instant it leaves the muzzle.

My .32, .40, .45, .58's & .69 all show this sighting phenominum - sighted at 25 yards, they are also just about dead on at 50 yards, give or take 1/2".

Taylor's explanation is direct, enough information and most importantly, to the point.  The point blank is the actual range at which one can take aim at an object or animal and be gauranteed a perfect hit, without having to aim high or low.
 
This was the only error on his post- minor at that.  The point blank range depends on the allowable error- ie: how high or low can the ball be before being ineffective on the intended target?  If it is allowed 3" high above the line of sight (sights) and 3" low, on a large deer for instance with a centre hold with hunting loads, most round ball guns will have about at 135 to 140 yard point blank range. that is, the bal will never be more than 3" above nor below the line of sight.  To have this long a point blank range, it must be sighted properly initially - probably in this instance, at about 110 or 115 yards, maybe 118yards, testing is necessary to show this - it is not written in a book.  Sight them to close, or too far away and the point blank range becomes shorter, generally, due to not allwoing the necessary rise, or introducing excessive rise between the muzzle and the sight-in range if sighted too far, say 125 yards or 130 yards, making the ball miss high at closer ranges.

Computer programs are useful in helping initial settings, but actual shooting is necessary.  My self and for hunting I prefer to have no more than a 100yard zero, then find what maximum range gives me the point blank range- ie: a drop of 3" to 4".  If group size is so large as to not show this fine a separation in range, you are testing beyond your accuracy range. imho.

As Taylor indicated, sight height does make a difference and also causes more height with increased loads and/or patch changes. The lower the sights, the less change occurs with increases in powder charge - somthing else to think about. Too, higher sights can work to your advantage ie: if you normally use squib loads for plinking, say 70gr. 3F or 80gr. 2F in a .50 or .54 and thus giving a zero at 50 yards (and 25),increasing that load to 100 3F to 120 2F (or whatever) for hunting, might make the ball travel to 2 1/2"high at 50, 3" high at 65 yards, thus giving you a perfect point blank as noted above, and having an actual zero of about 100 to 110yards. Hypothetical example only - guess what - YUP - you actually have to get out and shoot it to find out.  See what fun this is?


Levy

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Re: confused
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2011, 10:04:12 PM »
Did anyone mention recoil acting both on the gun and the shooter during firing?  Barrel time along with recoil and inertia can all help the impact point to be higher than the line of bore at the moment the trigger is pulled.  The barrel doesn't stay still as the bullet travels it length, does it?

James Levy

Offline bgf

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Re: confused
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2011, 10:07:06 PM »
Daryl,
Sorry if I confused the issue -- Taylor and I were typing about the same time.  Shovelbuck's response seemed to lack detail, though it was succinct, and that was the only one when I started typing.  Since I did such a shameful thing with poor composition style, please help me understand my errors.  I don't see where my first statement is incorrect, as the ball does travel upward higher than the bore (which is why I was careful to define "level").  There is a vertical component to its movement, which is being counteracted by gravity, but it does climb until overpowered by gravity.  What am I missing? 

I was trying to reconcile caliber45's viewpoint with that of his brother -- did it seem like I was trying to correct or contradict Taylor and Shovelbuck?

northmn

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Re: confused
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2011, 10:15:12 PM »
It's one of those points of discussion that boil down to the fact that you put sights on your gun, sight it in and shoot it enough to know where you shoot it a various yardages and the physics do not really matter.  Technically the projectile starts to drop the moment it leaves the muzzle and will hit the ground the same time as one dropped from the apex of trajectory.  If the muzzle is perfectly level with the ground and the ground is perfectly level the bullet will hit the ground at the same time as if dropped from muzzle height.  The forward and downward effects are independent.  High velocity rifles permit the bullet to go farther in the time it takes for it to hit the ground. I could look up the formulas but I think you understand that my 270 shoots flatter than my 58 and that if I want to hit something at longer ranges it helps to use a faster bullet. Still its fun to talk about.

DP

Offline bgf

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Re: confused
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2011, 10:26:11 PM »
northmm,
Your comment brought back fond memories of high school physics -- we had a lab where we build a rig that would fire a projectile and drop a target simultaneously to model the problem (apparently common in hunting monkeys), where a monkey drops from a branch at the same time as the hunter fires at him.  No actual monkeys were harmed in the experiment :).

Daryl

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Re: confused
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2011, 12:58:31 AM »
Sorry, bgf -  I wasn't aware of an up vertical component in this situation - we are talking about line of bore, not line of sights. As far as I know, there is only a horizontal (sideways) movement as well as a dropping movement - to upwards movement from the line of the bore. The horizontal component is due to the direction of twist, right for right hand twist, left for left hand twists, but is generaly only seen over longer distances - unmeasureable at normal ranges.

Now, wind can cause elevation changes, up or down, due to the rifling twist and angle to the line of fire, but without wind, it is just gravity and support - when one is lost, the other becomes law. imho.

 If you are talking about sights giving elevation to the bore, that's not the same thing as being discussed.  I'm afraid I would have to be shown a reason or physics law for any vertical movement.

 We all know, or should know, a smoothbore can have any direction of deviation, just as a hook or curve, slider or drop ball changes a baseball's direction - however we are talking about rifles, are we not?

I have never heard of a vertical movement above the axis of the bore - we are talking bore and ball axis, here, to define elevation above line of the bore, I believe. 

DP - Recoil does not cause any elevation to be given a projectile but merely points the bore higher than the original angle of the hold at the projectile's time of departure, (with low velcity, that is) - however as far as I'm aware, the ball or bullet starts dropping the instant it loses support of the barrel just as before.

If the bore is straight up or straight down this brings in another set of rules.

If the projectile is still in the bore when the gun's barrel rises from recoil, the ball is projected at that increased angle.  A harder or softer HOLD can change the point of impact considerably - but - as far as I know, the ball or bullet is still dropping the instant it loses the support of the bore.

Actual bullet or drop charts always show this - some run from 10 yards to 1,000 - as in the point blank program.

Even extremely high velocity, high ballistic coefficient modern bullets have dropped measurably from the line of the bore a mere 30 feet from the muzzle. I am referring to velcoities wel in excess of 4,000 feet per second.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: confused
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2011, 05:06:19 AM »
I remember when I first got my Shiloh .45 cal 3 1/4 Straight Sharps model 1874.  We calculated that when setting my tang sights to strike the target at 1000 yds., the 550 grain bullet reached a height of 80 feet above the ground on a level range.  Now, that's trajectory!!  A .54 cal. round ball will not go 1000 yds. as far as I know.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline bgf

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Re: confused
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2011, 06:10:02 AM »
Daryl,
To me, "up" when not qualified by a reference means up with an implicit reference to the ground plane, which seems just as valid a physical reference as the line of the bore.  I was taking "level of the bore" (from the original post) to refer to a line parallel to the ground at the height of the muzzle, which may be incorrect, although it seems to help visualize what is going on better in some cases than referencing drop to the "line of the bore", also known as the "line of departure".  If the term "level of the bore" is formally defined otherwise, that might explain my confusion, but I have not seen a definition of that sort.  With reference to the ground, the ball goes up and then down in the course of its flight if the barrel is elevated.  With reference to the line of the bore, the ball always drops, unless the ball is fired straight up, in which case I'm not sure, although gravity works on it the whole time :).  The line of sight is not parallel to either the ground or the line of the bore, but hopefully coincident with the path of the ball at one or more targets :).  Anyway, you've covered it well.

Daryl

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Re: confused
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2011, 05:26:32 PM »
Sorry for the initial misunderstanding, bgf.  I do it all the time too.  With those dang nitpickers out there ;), we have to be especially careful, especially in our old age.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: confused
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2011, 06:53:41 PM »
I'm confused. It was my understanding that as a patched ball leaves the muzzle, it is propelled in a rising arc, upward in that arc at a certain level at about 25 yards, and then returning downward to the same level in that arc at about 50 yards -- thereby enabling sighting-in at 25 yards with an expectation of hitting at the same level (if not group) at about 50 yards. Is the ball traveling in an upward arc because the sights tilt the barrel slightly upward to begin with, or is there upward movement of the ball even though the sight-line and bore are parallel with each other? My brother tells me the laws of physics dictate that a ball leaving a barrel will never fly higher than the level of the bore, so the only arc after the ball leaves the muzzle is downward. Clarification, pls? -- paulallen, tucson az

To hit a target at any distance from the muzzle the centerline of the bore has to be pointed a a point in space above the intended impact point.
The sights being above the bore assures this. If the sights are 1" above the bore centerline the bullet centerline is 1" below line of sight as it exits the muzzle. If dead on the sights at 25 this means the bullet has risen an inch PLUS the amount gravity has pulled it down in the time it took it to travel that distance. If the velocity is high enough it will continue to be above the line of sight for a considerable distance. If the sights are higher than 1" above the bore as many modern rifles are especially when equipped with a scope or other "modern" sight and the velocity is high enough it may not drop back to line of sight until 200 yards from the muzzle or beyond when "on" at 25. The higher sight means the bore must be angled higher to center the impact at 25 yards steeper angle means the bullet will travel farther before intersecting the line of sight again.
The arc formed by the trajectory is a result of gravity pulling the bullet down in curve that gets steeper as the bullet velocity bleeds off due to drag.

Dan
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Offline Dan

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Re: confused
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2011, 06:26:02 PM »

Daryl

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Re: confused
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2011, 07:43:45 PM »
 Quote from the Text, which answers the original question posted along with the first two answers.

"As soon as the bullet leaves the muzzle, gravity causes it to begin to fall away from its line of departure".

John A. Stein

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Re: confused
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2011, 06:17:58 AM »
When warm weather returns get your garden hose out and play with the stream of water. increase the elevation and or the velocity of the stream  and you will see what a bullets trajectory looks like. The bullet, stream of water, or a snowball all obey the same laws of physics, only the travel speed and range differ. If you can picture the trajectory it will take a lot of the mystery out of a bullet's flight.  John

Offline Dan

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Re: confused
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2011, 04:54:22 PM »
Why wait for warm weather when you can pee off the back porch and see the same thing? ;D

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: confused
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2011, 07:31:34 PM »
Why wait for warm weather when you can pee off the back porch and see the same thing? ;D
I can almost recall the time that I had pretty good trajectory thata way; but doesn't work so good now.. :-[

Offline Blacksmoke

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Re: confused
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2011, 08:41:09 AM »
Guys: This sounds like a lot of "dribble" to me!  ;D
H.T.

Daryl

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Re: confused
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2011, 06:25:47 PM »
Guys: This sounds like a lot of "dribble" to me!  ;D

If that's what it sounds like, you really should see a Dr.

Leatherbelly

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Re: confused
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2011, 09:14:08 PM »
Why wait for warm weather when you can pee off the back porch and see the same thing? ;D
I can almost recall the time that I had pretty good trajectory thata way; but doesn't work so good now.. :-[
Huey,glad you said dribble. Dribble is something that leaks out of  select appendices. Now drivel, is something that leaks out a persons mouth in the form of non-sensible words. LOL,... of which I've been known to do! :P :D
  Roger, having trouble with ballistic dribble? Try "saw palmetto", it'll return your velocity to that of a ten year old! ;D Works for me! :o  Dr. LB

Offline bgf

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Re: confused
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2011, 09:55:49 PM »
Thanks you all -- I feel much younger now :).