Need an'' oil finish'' walnut that is waterproof

[TPH]

John, that is very interesting and I don't doubt you one bit but you mean that the reaction occurs when applying tung oil, not when the finish is dry, correct?

My info is secondhand..I have a friend whose oldest daughter is very allergic to nuts. They won't allow anything finished with tung oil in the house.


John.

Can't say as how I blame them....

[Kermit]

Tung oil: http://www.realmilkpaint.com/oil.html

Stockholm tar; http://www.tarsmell.com/tar.html

Turpentine (not mineral spirits)

My favorite marine finish is 3 turps, 2 tung oil, 1 tar. Great stuff. Darkens wood because of the tar, so try on a sample. You can play with the proportions. Sometimes I reduce the turps, sometimes less tar, but this is my starting point. I used to do it in three equal parts.

Used to use BLO in the mix, but it eventually turns the wood black. Tung oil "finishes" are essentially wiping varnishes with (maybe) some tung oil in them. Not all pine tar is Stockholm tar, but Stockholm tar is pine tar.

I've never used it on a gunstock, but I've put it on a lot of other things.

[Dphariss]

A question for the collective wisdom of the board ...

I am just finishing the sanding on a walnut stocked musket . Original muskets evidently were finished with a lead based  boiled linseed oil at the armory ,which, even if available, would not be a consideration.I do not want to use a hard varnish but want to replicate the soft looking finish of an original musket .

In the past on trade guns I have used a ''royal beeswax and some kind of  oil concoction'' a friend of mine made up some years ago  from a recipe he got from an antique dealer.It is fairly waterproof ,melted on with a heat gun, and polymerizes over time. But it's almost gone along with the secret recipe  . I do not want to use straight linseed oil is not waterproof and  doesn't really dry.
My desire is to seal the stock and am not concerned with materials authenticity but more interested in sealing/waterproofing with the ''look'' of the real thing .Hopefully this is something readily available .What about a two layer finish ?

I have used in the past on long rifles an oil/ poly floor finish that was wonderful, tough and so waterproof it was the envy of the local ducks but it is  too ''hard looking'' .Before that  Homer Formby's tung oil varnish worked almost as well .But that too looks like my kitchen floor. All the muskets I have handled  looked to be oiled (plus dirt patina) and were not varnished guns at all  so my old favorites are out .
 
What are you all using ?

I use my home cooked linseed oil  mixed 50-50 with Grumbacher's Oil Painting medium III. I buy it at "Michaels" but almost any place that sells a full line of oil painting supplies will have it. It runs about 12 bucks at Michaels.

It has a minimum of "modern" ingredients and mixed with Linseed will stand several months (6 +) constant exposure to sun, warm, cold rain and snow with no change. Nor will it be hard like "Tru-Oil".

I suspect that a oil finish like Chambers would perform in the same manner with similar ratios.
There is no "waterproof" finish for a gunstock. Its virtually impossible to do. A finish that is hard enough to be waterproof will check, craze or crack with temperature changes as the wood expands and contracts which it WILL do.
Wood exposed to temperature extremes requires an ELASTIC finish. Flexible as seen on labels is NOT the same thing.

Dan

[TPH]

Good post Dan, that really does say it all.

[pathfinder]

50+ year furniture fe-finisher, Dan is correct!

[Mattole]

A question for the collective wisdom of the board ...

I am just finishing the sanding on a walnut stocked musket . Original muskets evidently were finished with a lead based  boiled linseed oil at the armory ,which, even if available, would not be a consideration.I do not want to use a hard varnish but want to replicate the soft looking finish of an original musket .

In the past on trade guns I have used a ''royal beeswax and some kind of  oil concoction'' a friend of mine made up some years ago  from a recipe he got from an antique dealer.It is fairly waterproof ,melted on with a heat gun, and polymerizes over time. But it's almost gone along with the secret recipe  . I do not want to use straight linseed oil is not waterproof and  doesn't really dry.
My desire is to seal the stock and am not concerned with materials authenticity but more interested in sealing/waterproofing with the ''look'' of the real thing .Hopefully this is something readily available .What about a two layer finish ?

I have used in the past on long rifles an oil/ poly floor finish that was wonderful, tough and so waterproof it was the envy of the local ducks but it is  too ''hard looking'' .Before that  Homer Formby's tung oil varnish worked almost as well .But that too looks like my kitchen floor. All the muskets I have handled  looked to be oiled (plus dirt patina) and were not varnished guns at all  so my old favorites are out .
 
What are you all using ?

I use my home cooked linseed oil  mixed 50-50 with Grumbacher's Oil Painting medium III. I buy it at "Michaels" but almost any place that sells a full line of oil painting supplies will have it. It runs about 12 bucks at Michaels.

It has a minimum of "modern" ingredients and mixed with Linseed will stand several months (6 +) constant exposure to sun, warm, cold rain and snow with no change. Nor will it be hard like "Tru-Oil".

I suspect that a oil finish like Chambers would perform in the same manner with similar ratios.
There is no "waterproof" finish for a gunstock. Its virtually impossible to do. A finish that is hard enough to be waterproof will check, craze or crack with temperature changes as the wood expands and contracts which it WILL do.
Wood exposed to temperature extremes requires an ELASTIC finish. Flexible as seen on labels is NOT the same thing.

Dan

Hello Dan,
Sounds very interesting.. How long does it take for that mixture to dry? How many coats do you use? Any photos available of the results? I have a newly purchased used Lyman GPR that I am going to rebuild and I'm looking for ideas about refinishing the stock.

Thanks,
Kevin

[Dphariss]

For a first coat sealer I would use aged turpentine in the mix, put it in a shallow dish for 5 days or so.
Mix in 10-20% turp.
Apply to wood till it will soak up no more then wait till the next morning.
The gun will be usable then. In fact if wiped dry it usable right after oiling.
If filling walnut a light oil is not the best choice.
I can fill walnut in 3 days 6 coats with heavy oil, maybe then a little light weight oil/Grumbacher mix for a shine coat.
If it takes more than 6-8 coats to fill American Walnut the wrong product/technique is being used.



Basically just like the old time gun makers you need to make your own finish for best results.
So to do this you will need to make your own oil. The process has been gone over by me in previous posts several times.


From 2009 post:

"Buy a gallon of boiled oil, I prefer Parks brand if it can be found and some Japan Drier.
Buy an old deep fat fryer  at a second hand store.

Pick up some limestone a few pebbles 3-4 about the size of my thumb work.

DO THIS OUTSIDE. It is fully as dangerous as a deep fat fryer used for cooking. Keep all living things away from it.
Put the oil in the fryer with the limestone after its been whacked with a hammer once or twice to make it finer.
Put in a tablespoon  or so of Japan Drier.
Put the fryer on high. Oil will begin to smoke when near max temp. Keep it there for 10-20 minutes then shut off and allow to cool. This will darken and thicken the oil.
Decant into jars.
For fill oil for walnut I leave about 1/2 the oil in the cooker and reheat for an hour or so to thicken it more.
The limestone reduces the acid level in the oil to reduce drying time. This oil can be used to make HC oil cloth too but the acids will rot the cloth so acid reduction is important.
Some add lead acetate etc to the oil to redden it somewhat and reduce drying time in high humidity.
On walnut this oil will allow 2 coats a day if put in direct sunlight. I apply heavy for walnut then rub off the excess to fill the grain. 0000 steel wool will work on uncarved guns. Take it off when it get rubbery and will not pull from the grain. This stuff will work as fill when very thick and I put a cloth over a pint of it to allow air access to thicken it more.
It will also enhance the figure in wood far better than modern clear finishes will.
Initial coat should be the thin oil with 1 in 4 parts (+-) turpentine that has been aged in a shallow pan 2-3 days to allow it to pickup oxygen. This will speed drying of the oil that soaks into the wood.

I mix the oil 50-50 with Grumbacher's Oil Painting Medium III for final stock finish. Makes a soft oil varnish than resists water better than straight oil. I do not do built up finishes."

I would also ad that the more you boil the oil and the thicker it gets the faster it will fill Walnut.
Put it on heavy and take it back off with 0000 steel wool of burlap as soon as it will not stick well to the steel wool. 2-3 hours in hot direct sun.

Gotta run.
There are other posts on filling walnut and making oil as well.
Dan

[Roger Fisher]

Ol tyme 'leaded' boiled linseed oil many coats rub/rub/rub is my submission here!

[Mattole]

For a first coat sealer I would use aged turpentine in the mix, put it in a shallow dish for 5 days or so.
Mix in 10-20% turp.
Apply to wood till it will soak up no more then wait till the next morning.
The gun will be usable then. In fact if wiped dry it usable right after oiling.
If filling walnut a light oil is not the best choice.
I can fill walnut in 3 days 6 coats with heavy oil, maybe then a little light weight oil/Grumbacher mix for a shine coat.
If it takes more than 6-8 coats to fill American Walnut the wrong product/technique is being used.

I'm obviously not the originator of this thread, but I want to thank you for taking the time to post your instructions.

To ensure that I am understanding correctly:

1- When you refer to 'aged turpentine', are you referring to a product that I can purchase, or do I have to make it myself?

2- For filling maple but NOT walnut, do I place the boiled oil/Grumbacher mix in a shallow dish for 5 days, then add 10-20% aged turpentine?

3- The stock I will be treating will be Lyman's GPR European walnut - are the considerations the same for European as for American walnut?.

4- When you refer to using 'heavy oil' alone for filling American walnut, are you referring to your ultra boiled linseed oil alone? Then after filling the grain, I would use the oil/Grumbacher mix as a finish coat to provide a little sheen?

5- One more question: will this treatment bring out the subtle and dramatic nuances of the grain pattern? I know when I have used "tung oil" type finishes like Formby's in the past the grain pattern and any underlying 'cat's eye' kind of glow has really popped out, which has been nice. But like the OP of this thread, I don't like that shiny floor kind of finish..

Many, many thanks again.

Kevin

[Mattole]

Ooops - I see you had already addressed my questions #1 and #6 in the excerpt from your 2009 post above..

[Rasch Chronicles]

Ahhh...

This fills in some of the holes in my query on HC stock finishes.

All of y'all, thanks for the information, 411, skinny, etc!

Best Regards,
Albert “Afghanus” Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles™
Big Hog Hunting in Florida!!

[Dphariss]

For a first coat sealer I would use aged turpentine in the mix, put it in a shallow dish for 5 days or so.
Mix in 10-20% turp.
Apply to wood till it will soak up no more then wait till the next morning.
The gun will be usable then. In fact if wiped dry it usable right after oiling.
If filling walnut a light oil is not the best choice.
I can fill walnut in 3 days 6 coats with heavy oil, maybe then a little light weight oil/Grumbacher mix for a shine coat.
If it takes more than 6-8 coats to fill American Walnut the wrong product/technique is being used.

I'm obviously not the originator of this thread, but I want to thank you for taking the time to post your instructions.

To ensure that I am understanding correctly:

1- When you refer to 'aged turpentine', are you referring to a product that I can purchase, or do I have to make it myself?

2- For filling maple but NOT walnut, do I place the boiled oil/Grumbacher mix in a shallow dish for 5 days, then add 10-20% aged turpentine?

3- The stock I will be treating will be Lyman's GPR European walnut - are the considerations the same for European as for American walnut?.

4- When you refer to using 'heavy oil' alone for filling American walnut, are you referring to your ultra boiled linseed oil alone? Then after filling the grain, I would use the oil/Grumbacher mix as a finish coat to provide a little sheen?

5- One more question: will this treatment bring out the subtle and dramatic nuances of the grain pattern? I know when I have used "tung oil" type finishes like Formby's in the past the grain pattern and any underlying 'cat's eye' kind of glow has really popped out, which has been nice. But like the OP of this thread, I don't like that shiny floor kind of finish..

Many, many thanks again.

Kevin

Poor syntax on my part. Age the turpentine for several days in an open shallow dish, if you age the Grumbachers/oil mix it will set.

Thick/heavy bodied oil fills Walnut best.
Home cooked boiled linseed oil can be thickened by putting it in a jar with a cloth over the top to allow air to circulate. It will work as fill when too think to drip off a finger. Heating it repeatedly or for a couple of hours  or a little more will thicken it faster to the point its more useful. Repeated heatings  of an hour oir so each allow examination to see how the oil is progressing. Setting in a jar it takes time to thicken it and a think skin forms as well..
Generally really thick oil is not needed for maple. I would seal with the linseed/turp or linseed/Grumbachers/turp mix. Let it soak in then wipe off any excess. Let it dry ovenight inside. Then apply THIN coats of the oil/gbachers for finish. Maple will look pretty good in a coat or two and will give a finish much like oil but more water resistent than straight oil.
The aged turp (REAL TURPENTINE not synthetic) carries oxygen and will help the finish that has soaked into the wood "dry".
Its not needed for top coats.

European walnut is closer grained than American and requires less fill. Its between Maple and American Walnut in time required to finish.

Natural oils will make to wood look better with less work than the plastics or other thin colorless or nearly colorless stock finishes will. But it does not occur in 10 minutes. The color will develop and improve over a week or maybe 2. It will add depth to the wood.

Doing a good stock finish requires an understanding of the oil being used and what the wood needs.
Filling walnut with a heavy oil (no gumbachers added) entails smearing some pretty heavy oil on the wood and seeing it get all wrinkly and ugly then taking it off when its just dry enough to not goo up the steel wool or Burlap.
It will still be semi-sticky next to the wood at removal and in hot weather will allow 2 coats put on and removed in a day if set in the direct sun. 3-6 coats will fill walnut in most cases. Winter it takes more time, maybe one coat a day, no more labor.
If a hard drying varnish is used for this sanding will be required and a LOT more work and the fill likes to pull from the pores.
When well filled just top coat to give the desired look. I use the oil/gumbacers for top coats but am still experimenting with making oils and varnishes. This mix is easy  for a novice if the right oil is available to mix with it.
I often put a nice shine coat on walnut then rub it back ot the wood with rottenstone and oil. Then just the thinnest final coat that will cover the wood completely for a medium shine. Low shine put on a coat of the Grumbachers mix and then wipe it back before it gets gummy this will give a fairly dull finish that still looks good.

Its very difficult to explain this all in writing since there are so many variables with different pieces of wood and how they react to finish, carved/uncarved etc etc.
The final coats of the grumbacher's mix is a soft  fairly shiny varnish and will be pretty shiny if allowed to build much on the wood. Very small amounts need to be spread on the wood as far as possible by rubbing with the hand.
A thin finish of oil only on maple will look pretty dull when first dried but rubbing the dry finish with a hand or a soft cloth will generally produce a shine on a finish that looks good.

There has been a long discussion on this including some on rosin varnish etc that is very informative.

I have been engaging in "distracted typing" I hope this makes sense.
Dan

[bgf]

I want to try Dan's mix as well, but the next thing on my list of things to try is Minwax Antique Oil Finish.  It appears to be linseed oil with driers and resin, and it gets good reviews for finishing guns as well as other uses.  I believe it is a simple oil wiping varnish that isn't too far from what would have been used at least on some rifles, much like what Dan makes.  Google it, as they say, and see what you think.

[Dphariss]

I want to try Dan's mix as well, but the next thing on my list of things to try is Minwax Antique Oil Finish.  It appears to be linseed oil with driers and resin, and it gets good reviews for finishing guns as well as other uses.  I believe it is a simple oil wiping varnish that isn't too far from what would have been used at least on some rifles, much like what Dan makes.  Google it, as they say, and see what you think.

Looks like 65% mineral spirits and .2% of some Cobalt dryer at least from the MSDS at:
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=17393

Most of this sort of thing is trash as a stock finish.

Unless you like getting a good dose of solvent fumes while finishing stocks.
Its so thin and surely near colorless as to be useless.
It is nearly impossible to buy a decent stock finish from a lumberyard. People that buy stuff from Home Depot are not finishing gunstocks. The only things they sell that are of use are real turpentine and boiled or raw linseed oil. And the linseed oil requires modification to be  useful.

You will find that even boiled linseed oil will likely have some mineral spirits, its used as a carrier for the dryers. But this can be cooked off when the oil is heat bodied. And even if not its a small percentage. Perhaps 5% is driers and carrier according to the MSDS here.
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=17628
Boiled oil must have some driers to speed drying. Just heating it is not enough.

People need to look up the MSDS on items they intend to use. Its often very enlightening.
Dan

[bgf]

Dan,
Thanks -- I didn't notice there was so much thinner in it.  I've got a can but haven't even opened yet, so I can try it out on some scrap without losing much; if I can get a good test of it, I'll put up some pictures.  It does seem to get mostly good reviews, even for gun stocks (not from professional builders though), so I was hoping it would be an off-the-shelf solution.  Also, its not easy to find, so I figured it must be good .