Author Topic: Golden Mean  (Read 13568 times)

FRJ

  • Guest
Golden Mean
« on: February 12, 2011, 08:35:05 PM »
I'm reading a new book and it keeps mentioning the "Golden Mean" and I can't find a definition for the term. Help please!!! Frank

Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19444
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2011, 08:53:43 PM »
Ah man, not again! If you do a search on it you will find pages of arguments over it! Here is one:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=1597.0
and another
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=2930.0
Dennis
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 08:55:35 PM by Dennis Glazener »
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline flintriflesmith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1509
    • Flintriflesmith
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2011, 08:58:07 PM »
This thread turned up in a quick search and I think it has not just a simple answer to your question but a lot of opinions about whether the GM matters or not --- 8 or 9 pages worth!

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=1597.0

I think the debate usually comes down to: Does this form or design look good because the maker intentionally used the Golden Mean proportions?
OR
Do designs that naturally look good follow the Goldne Mean because it is what appeals to the human sense of proportion?

Gary
"If you accept your thoughts as facts, then you will no longer be looking for new information, because you assume that you have all the answers."
http://flintriflesmith.com

FRJ

  • Guest
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2011, 09:03:52 PM »
I must be doing something wrong as I never seem to  find what I want on the search page. I'll look at what you were good enough to show me and be back. Thanks, Frank

Offline Long Ears

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 720
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2011, 09:05:19 PM »
Look out! here we go again! LOL, Bob

Online Dave B

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3133
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2011, 09:22:22 PM »
It reminds me of the hornets nest I found laying on the ground. It didn't look like it was active .....like no one would care if I was to pick it up..... till I rolled it over. :o :o by the way it was in a perfect ratio of 3/5th to 2/5th.  Those bald faced hornets were awfully proud of it too, five of them splained it to me pointedly.
I think we have had three good roues about this topic. 
Dave Blaisdell

LURCHWV@BJS

  • Guest
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2011, 10:00:25 PM »
Relizing this is a topic that has been talked to death,  It will be ressurected as long as newbie exist.  Most publications refer to The Golden Mean as if EVEYBODY already knows what it is.  I never heard the term until I came here.  If I had known it causes such dismay my questions about it would never have been asked.  But as long as the term is used without an explanation  the Questions   Will be asked.


   Rich

FRJ

  • Guest
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2011, 01:25:55 AM »
Well I read it and it was clear as mud. I think I'll just keep doing it the way I like it and let the devil take the hindmost. Thank You Gentlemen, Frank

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1861
    • My etsy shop
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2011, 01:31:11 AM »
The Golden Mean as an idea is really fascinating.  That does not mean I think it should always be used. 
I submitted a horn for judging once years ago when I first got started making horns.  The judges reply said that I needed to use the Golden Mean to figure out how long to carve the throat.  I always just carved the throat the length that I could get the color I wanted to come out.  Looking at original horns I cannot see a hard and fast rule.  But it was an idea.

What I think is interesting is that the only thing the will get the kind of responce in here that the Golden Mean does is a question on the characteristics of a Virginia Rifle. 

We are a passionate group about these two issues.

Coryjoe

Offline Pete G.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2011
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2011, 02:17:47 AM »
Perhaps an over simplification, but it is basically nothing more that the proportions a good artist or photographer uses in a composition, often just rounded off to a 1/3 to 2/3 proportion. Thats what the grid lines in a lot of the digital camera view screens are for.

Berks Liberty

  • Guest
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2011, 02:46:06 AM »
This is the same topic that was beat to death when I was in high school taking art classes....... This is probably why I fall to sleep when it's brought up!:o

Jason

FRJ

  • Guest
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2011, 02:56:50 AM »
My sincere apology to all that I offended by asking this question and also to those that are offended by my being a newbie. That said I will continue to ask questions as needed as I believe that the only dumb question is the one that goes unasked!!!!! I found a good definition of this subject on Wilkipedia and it served to convince me that it is something that I wont persue as a mathematical certainty as it is called an illogical formula. I know whats pleasing to my eye and thats good enough for me. This has already taken way too much of my valuable time and I'm done with it. To those I didn't offend thanks for helping me. Frank

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1861
    • My etsy shop
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2011, 03:07:34 AM »
Don't be discouraged by it, it is certainly something the explore.  As I said I find it fascinating.
This website helped me to understand it alot.  And it gives instructions on its use.

http://www.hootalrifleshop.org/golden_mean.htm

I intend to give it a try.  Leonardo DaVinci was onto to something and noone should throw the baby out with the bath water.

Coryjoe

Offline whitebear

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 837
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2011, 03:49:36 AM »
FRJ, let me apologize for my forum family for their answers to your question.  We all started somewhere at some time and had to asked questions.  I seriously doubt that anyone was offended by your question and I know that they weren't offended by you being a newbie.  Some times us older heads know things and just assume that others know these same things from day one.  Please continue to ask questions and chip in with answers to our questions none of us know it all although I and some others like to act like we do. 

Again please accept my apologies for our lack of manners.
In the beginning God...
Georgia - God's vacation spot

omark

  • Guest
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2011, 03:50:45 AM »
FRJ, i dont think anyone was offended by your question. its more a matter of an inside joke that you have to be in on. now that you have an idea of and are more "inside", it will seem more humorous next time some one else asks. these people are really great about answering anyones questions and dont mean  to belittle you in any way. as you are more familiar around here, you will appreciate it, too.  mark

LURCHWV@BJS

  • Guest
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2011, 06:29:13 AM »
FRJ,

   Please don't take offense to my choice of word Newbie.  What I was trying to point out is  several members here hate to see anyone ask a question about this subject.Whether you are new to building or you've been around the block... sevaral times.  I asked the same question just last year.  A few weeks from now another person will ask about it again.  I don't doubt the Golden Mean was discussed in many a school across the country.  My art teacher however seldom taught anthing about Art,  But I did learn how to cultivate an illegal substance. LOL  ;D He Was stoned 90% of the time.  Okieboy explained it to me. as did several others.  99% of the people will help you in any way the can.  It can be easy at  times to irritate someone as it can be hard to convey thoughts and idea's that normally need a hands on approach.  Sometimes it is difficult to put the shape of architechture into words.  Some things we just need to see.
  This is a question that will be asked as long as there are people who have never heard of TheGolden Mean.
  I'm sure someone will explain it,  It can be a difficult subject.


         Rich

Berks Liberty

  • Guest
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2011, 07:12:59 AM »
There was a good seminar at Dixons last year that went through some examples of how the Golden Mean was used in all types of art, photography and even gunbuilding.  I just can't remember who taught the class. 

Sorry FRJ about the comment it's just one of those special topics that will always be interesting to talk about....Keep researching and I hope it helps on your next build. 

Jason

Offline Karl Kunkel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 975
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2011, 07:27:17 AM »
That was Barry Bohnet (sp?) with the seminar at Dixon's.  I think he has a pamphlet out on the subject available through the NMLRA.
Kunk

northmn

  • Guest
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2011, 07:06:38 PM »
Ask your questions.  As stated the GM is kind of an inside joke on some of the discussions previously held.  Technically the GM is a number just like pi.  You can roughly estimate the circumference of a circle of the area using 3 for pi but it is a rough estimate.  Like pi the GM is an irrational number which means it can be carried out indefinitely.  Some one will get galssy eyed and point out all the things that seem to follow the GM but researchers have found that it is generally applied to proportions between 1-1.4 and 1-1.75.  Its closest practical use would be 1 1 5/8.  Also it is generally used in relation to height to width as in sizing artists canvasses or windows.   If it is not 1 - 1.618.... it is not the GM, just another proportion, but some love to call about anything close the GM.

DP

Offline Kermit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3099
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2011, 08:26:47 PM »
I've recently had a discussion with other furnituremakers and woodworkers about the "golden mean" and "golden rectangle." I'm still looking, but I've been led to understand that the concept is one that was superimposed on designs of earlier times by Victorian English writers seeking to explain what they were seeing.

Now RATIOS...

If you look at Greek architecture, for example, there are many ratios evident in the design of a single structure. Colonial furniture design was often pretty much a series of ratios given to a journeyman by a master. For example, a highboy might be determined to be as tall as the height of the top of the windows in the room it was destined for. Then the ratio of height to width would be stated, the ratio of width to depth, and so on. Drawers might be similarly scaled. An essentially illiterate journeyman could proceed with this information. Field measurements could be carried back to the shop on a stick. When I was doing my first layout work in the 70's, my boss brought me measurements that way, not numbers off of a tape and written on paper.

I've begun to use dividers and  "sectors" to lay out furniture. YEARS ago, I was taught to do all my layout using "story sticks," and still do that. NONE of the craftsmen (or the owner) in the shop where I now work part-time/semi-retired knows how to do this, so I get much of the new layout work.

A "sector" is a simple device used in many building trades. In my situation, mine is a shop-made device. I chose two stable and straight (I made 'em that way) maple sticks about 1 x 1.5 inches and maybe two feet long. Can't recall--not important. The two are joined at one end by a brass hinge screwed into the end grain, so they open and close like alligator jaws. Along the length of the two sticks are incised lines squared around each piece, and stepped off equally along the length with dividers starting at the pivot point of the hinge. I think my first has thirteen marks, done just because. Thirteen colonies maybe. Whatever. I marked each line with Arabic numbers, but a pic of an old one had the numbers in Roman numerals, probably because they could be whacked into the wood with a chisel. All straight lines. Quick. Time is now, and was then, money.

So let's say I want a 4:5 ratio, and I know the longest line. I open the sector and place the marks for either 5 or 10 (doubling 5) at the ends of that line. I then use my dividers to pick up the length across the sector at 4 (or 8 if I used a double). The dividers carry that measurement to my layout or directly to the stock being worked. A paperless shop at a time when paper was too expensive to use and toss.

Since starting to explore this, I've made longer sectors to measure longer lines, and have made my own dividers from wood, using metal points. Accuracy is repeatable and limited only by the craftsman's care and the sharpness of the points and width of the lines marked out with blades. Only weird thing is doing this pre-tape measure stuff in a shop that's full of rulers. Before about 1830 much work was done this way. No need to understand fractions, adding, subtracting, dividing... What happened about 1830? Machines. Craftsmen started to make the shift to being machine operators, and machines demanded numerical measurements. Workers had to be educated differently to use arithmetic.

So anyway, the Golden Whatever is an interesting academic exercise, but I'm finding it much more interesting to work with ratios, and using things like ratios in the human body or the Fibonacci sequence. None of it requires a tape or a calculator. Wish I'd started this journey when I was a lot younger.

This is all pretty new to me, and pretty much based on my opinion. Ignorance is the mother if invention sometimes. Toss it if you want. It's worth what I've charged you, I expect. Just my new/old way of viewing my work. I'm wondering what sort of academic discussions can come of examining original guns with an eye to exploring ratios. Probably already been done somewhere, huh. :-\
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Leatherbelly

  • Guest
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2011, 09:47:26 PM »
  I love it and totally believe it's in every artist that's worth his weight in salt! All about ratios and what greets the eye.Form and architecture.

Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19444
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2011, 03:30:01 AM »
Quote
My sincere apology to all that I offended by asking this question and also to those that are offended by my being a newbie. That said I will continue to ask questions as needed as I believe that the only dumb question is the one that goes unasked!!!!! I found a good definition of this subject on Wilkipedia and it served to convince me that it is something that I wont persue as a mathematical certainty as it is called an illogical formula. I know whats pleasing to my eye and thats good enough for me. This has already taken way too much of my valuable time and I'm done with it. To those I didn't offend thanks for helping me. Frank
Frank if apologies are in order its ours to you not from you to us! We older members have seen that discussion come up several times and it always causes heated discussions. My thoughts were OK here we go again, we will have the same arguments as before. I am sorry if it sounded like it was meant for you. I can easily understand you thinking it was, my fault for that.

The intent of ALR is to attract "newbies" and to be able to offer any help we can to newcomers to the study/building/shooting of the American Longrifle. Keep asking questions and we will do our best to help as we can.
Dennis
 
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline KentSmith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
    • Augusta Gunworks
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2011, 05:10:24 PM »
To answer your question;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

Take a straight line segment call it A.  Divide it into two segments and call them B and C, with B > C.

The point at which you divide A and therefore determine the length of B and C are in the golden mean if the ratio of the length of A is to the length of B is equal to the ratio of B to C.  this can occur only when A is 1.168 time B and B is 1.168 times C.  1.1680339887... is know as phi an irrational number.

Fibonacci numbers  {0,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144...} relate to phi as they increase, 21/34 = 1.619, 55/89 = 1.617 and so on.

Basic rule of propportion.  Take a beautiful actress and stand her up straight.  Measure her height and call the measurement A.  Now measure from the floor to her navel and call that B.  Then measure from her navel to the top of her head call that C.  The ratio of A to B is the same as B to C - or thereabouts....for someone whose body shape is attractive - and that can get subjective for some.  Not sure Danny Devito would measure out this way.  The key is what humans find attractive.

Strange ratio found a lot in nature and on this board.  I don't use it on guns except when I am at a loss about where the place ment of something like a tang screw should go to "look" best, but I expect when looking at that perfect gun there would be a lot of golden mean ratios there.

Offline KentSmith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
    • Augusta Gunworks
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2011, 05:13:35 PM »
opps - sorry the ratio is 1.618033988749895... not 1.1618 as I said previously. 

Old man starts talking and who knows whats going to come out of his mouth.

omark

  • Guest
Re: Golden Mean
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2011, 07:46:30 PM »
not sure danny devito would measure out this way,,,,         thats ok cause i dont find danny devito attractive, any way              :D  mark