Author Topic: What's correct?  (Read 11027 times)

bonron

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What's correct?
« on: April 17, 2011, 06:12:14 PM »
Greetings from an Oldie-Newbie: This is intended for those of us who build rifles for our own enjoyment, and to satisfy that eternal need for self-satisfaction in everything we do. I am finishing what started as an early Lancaster Isaac Haines. As I progressed  from the beginning to now, I have seen on the forum, time after time, the concern for PC/HC. Why?? Most of us are not blessed with the talent of the outstanding craftsmen, and their work, we see on our forum and could never match their resulting efforts. So I make what pleases me in the manner and style that I feel good with and do not pay much attention to "correct". I'm happy and that really is what matters most to me. I'm near 80 and I don't try to emulate or duplicate another mans rifle. In finishing I do what I love and love what I do. I'm losing my sight and most of my joints are disintergrating but the BP that runs in my veins will always be there. My rifle may not be "correct" but by God I made it and I'm proud of it. Happy Building!!!!!!!!!!!!

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2011, 06:28:30 PM »
Go for it Bonron, your out look on life at 80 is great, keep on shooting.  Smylee

TwoBlades

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2011, 06:30:13 PM »
For some of us making a rifle that is as correct as possible is part of the fun.  After all, I became interested in the sport out of an interest in history.  I may never achieve a museum quality replica, but I enjoy trying to get as close as possible.  If you enjoy something else, it's no problem for me.

greybeard

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2011, 07:03:18 PM »
Get er done Boron. You are really the only one that matters.   I have never had the pleasure of being able to handle and study originals so I depend on pictures and my imagination. May not be PC OR HC  but if it pleases me thats all that matters.  I have stepped out of my comfort zone and am trying to do a Berks county gun ( Reedy style) and from only pics there seems to be many many unanswered ?????
Cheers   Bob

Offline James Rogers

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2011, 07:28:44 PM »
To each his own and I have no problems with anyone building whatever thay want, even if they want to use plastic for a stock and stainless hardware. I do have a problem with a few from either side of the fence feeling that all should share their particular view.

My personal interests lie within that which is historically correct. I have modern gun interests to satisfy the other stuff to a better fulfillment.

mjm46@bellsouth.net

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2011, 07:31:43 PM »
Bonron I totally agree with you. Been doing the BP thing since about 1974, and never built a rifle till about 2006, I was playing with DGW "Reproduction ::)" and a Brown Bess Musket during the Bicentennial neither was HC especially the rifle, but it encouraged my interest in history. Now that I'm retired I can build them myself, I full love doing it each one is a learning experience and each one gets a little better than the last, maybe by the time I'm your age I'll be good at it. ;D

Offline valongrifles

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2011, 08:58:24 PM »
Correctness doesn't really matter except when someone passes a specimen off as a replica of a particular weapon. If someone wishes to build a gun "in the style of..." I have no problem with that; most people won't as long as it is correct and it is represented as such. If someone wants to just build a gun and incorporate what appeals to them, I have no problem with that. But, if a gun is presented to be a particular school and represented as such it should be correct as some people may not know one school or style from another and in the process perpetuate something incorrectly for future studies and such.

bonron

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2011, 10:05:27 PM »
Thanks for the responses!!  All I'm trying to say is no one can exactly replicate anothers work regardless of what it may be. If you want to strive for perfection, go for it. It doesn't have to be perfect to be good. Just do the best you can at what you're doing and enjoy what  life brings your way!!

Who would make a ML with a plastic stock and stainless steel furniture???

Offline alex e.

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2011, 10:56:18 PM »
"Who would make a ML with a plastic stock and stainless steel furniture??? "

TC, CVA, Knight,Ruger,Remington,.....Ect.........
 ;)
Uva uvam videndo varia fit

bonron

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2011, 11:43:10 PM »
Alexsnr: I meant a "real" ML :)

bonron

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2011, 12:00:36 AM »
Guys:  I bought this rifle in the white from a Michigan dealer who pretty much lied to me. I would be happy to  discuss this jaybird with anyone who emails me. I feel he intentionally shafted me. All my purchases since I got the rifle are from Log Cabin and TOW. :( :o

Offline James Rogers

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2011, 12:05:07 AM »
"Who would make a ML with a plastic stock and stainless steel furniture??? "

TC, CVA, Knight,Ruger,Remington,.....Ect.........
 ;)

You would be surprised if you look at some of the other ML websites. There are quite a few out of the ordinary builds by individuals. Saw a colt 1911 target flintlock the other month, a mid 18th century gun with German silver hardware, an English blunderbuss with the trigger guard on backwards and running up the lower forestock, laminate stocks, etc.
There is also a facet of this hobby who are high end and high art but make completely contemporary styled designs looking nothing like a.traditional arm. Different strokes. I can appreciate everyone's right to their own ideas even if I don't like them.

Offline JDK

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2011, 02:44:13 AM »
What's funny to me is that all the builders of the past that worked in a new style that later became what some refer to as "schools" were not PC/HC in their time either.  I believe allot of them were just building what suited them too....or their customers ;).  So, do as you please.  Just my two cents, J.D.
J.D. Kerstetter

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2011, 04:46:24 AM »
Just call yourself a free-form builder and suddely all your anxieties disappear.

bonron

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2011, 05:19:15 AM »
Gaeckle: What anxieties?

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2011, 05:22:37 AM »
Gaeckle: What anxieties?

Aha!!!

.....your cured.......

bonron

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2011, 06:07:13 AM »
FINI ::)

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2011, 05:21:57 PM »
I agree that a person should work in the manner that pleases them.  I also disagree with those who consider their approach to be correct and all others to be wrong.  With that said, I must also say that if someone wants to have success beyond that of personal satifisfaction, it is imperative to study originals and understand what historical correctness is.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 10:42:11 PM by Jim Kibler »

Offline JDK

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2011, 07:12:09 PM »
I believe this whole string should be sent "over the back fence" as it really has nothing to do with gun building.

Allot of this can be cleared up by clicking on the rifle above and reading the site's mission statement....if any of you haven't, please do.

I also think there is allot of confusion about PC/HC.  It doesn't mean you have to copy the old guns bolt for bolt/screw for screw.  There are allot of might have been builds here as we don't have all the evidence of what was....but I believe we need to stay away from the wouldn't or couldn't have beens....exotic woods and metals....architecture that is not in keeping spirit....coil springs, etc.

Over all this is a very tolerant and helpful bunch of people on this board and I for one am thankful it's here.  J.D.
J.D. Kerstetter

bonron

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2011, 04:51:41 PM »
  Happy Easter to everyone = Ron

Fred_Dwyer

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2011, 01:48:41 AM »
Quote
I also think there is allot of confusion about PC/HC.

Oh that's for sure. There were a few renown gun-wrights. The tendency is to think of the finest piece left existing is the typical gun. Nope, the typical gun wasn't carved, didn't have a patch-box, had no brass doo-dads. It was hammered out by the local blacksmith. It was a tool for harvesting dinner, the farmer wasn't paying for "optional equipment" that didn't make it kill more efficiently. These "barrels strapped on a strong bit of wood" guns were the common gun and more historically correct.

It's a bit like saying a stretch limo would be the historically correct example of personal transportation of the late 20th century.; when really it is the Ford Taurus or the like.

Guns were like recipes for spaghetti sauce, everybody had their own idea of what works.

Offline James Rogers

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2011, 02:11:14 AM »


the typical gun wasn't carved, didn't have a patch-box, had no brass doo-dads. It was hammered out by the local blacksmith. It was a tool for harvesting dinner, the farmer wasn't paying for "optional equipment" that didn't make it kill more efficiently. These "barrels strapped on a strong bit of wood" guns were the common gun and more historically correct.



This is based on what documentation and what time period?

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2011, 04:32:11 AM »
  Happy Easter to everyone = Ron


Happy Easter Ron!

Fred_Dwyer

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2011, 06:36:27 AM »
Quote
This is based on what documentation and what time period?

This is out of a book, "The Pennsylvania Longrifle" out of print when I found it 25 years ago. The period they talk about was the period of handmade guns, up to the period when manufacturing took control and the local artisans faded. The Pepperbox derringer was the newest piece they discuss but only as an oddity, since it was about long-guns. That puts it 1850 and earlier. There are no photos but plenty of line drawings.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: What's correct?
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2011, 08:00:21 AM »
Quote
I also think there is allot of confusion about PC/HC.

Oh that's for sure. There were a few renown gun-wrights. The tendency is to think of the finest piece left existing is the typical gun. Nope, the typical gun wasn't carved, didn't have a patch-box, had no brass doo-dads. It was hammered out by the local blacksmith. It was a tool for harvesting dinner, the farmer wasn't paying for "optional equipment" that didn't make it kill more efficiently. These "barrels strapped on a strong bit of wood" guns were the common gun and more historically correct.

It's a bit like saying a stretch limo would be the historically correct example of personal transportation of the late 20th century.; when really it is the Ford Taurus or the like.

Guns were like recipes for spaghetti sauce, everybody had their own idea of what works.

This is going to depend on the era. A blacksmith could build a gun probably. It would likely look like it was made by a blacksmith as well. Lots of people were stocking muskets during the Revolution who were not trained gunstockers. Some of these musket reflect this.
Some believe that people like this making guns after the war were part of the reason that the Golden Age guns were built.

Carving was cheap. Most wooden articles were carved in the mid-18th century. Even the Brown Bess had carving around the tang. I suspect that even plain guns had mouldings and perhaps some carving in other places.
If the gunstocker had a plane or scratch stock that formed the forestock moulding it was no more work to put on a moulding than not. And many plain rifles have such mouldings.
It was how things were done. Wood was carved.
This was abandoned in the late 18th- early 19th century, wood carving disappeared on furniture and other items, it was considered old fashioned and in America it finally died out on guns. The English duelers were starkly plain in many cases even in 1780s if not before..

Also what you wore and what you owned helped to set you position in society. It did not matter who you were if you dressed poorly and your other possessions were shoddy it indicated you were the lower rung of society.
Especially if you were travelling and were unknown to people.
If a person arrived who looked like a runaway bound servant he might be detained until his identity was known.
If the stranger was dressed like a gentleman and carried a fine rifle he would likely be treated like a gentleman even if he were a pauper in actuality.
So people had the best they could afford. And they could barter for rifles and even pay them off over time.

A rifle was expensive so adding 10c or 20c for carving was not a big deal I suspect. After all even the imported indian trade rifles of the 1780s were carved. They  also came in 3 grades and the lower grade rifle was the poorest seller. Apparently the Natives of the 1780s did not like the cheaper less well finished rifles either. Apparently they felt that a long rifle was carved and had a patchbox. This indicates that this is what they were used to seeing and using. Before 1780 or so the Indian rifles were usually American made so its likely that the "typical" American rifles the natives were using before the Rev-War cut British access to American rifles were carved and had "boxes" at least in the majority of cases..

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine