Pros and Cons for "glass" at BP Shoots

[Jim Thomas]

Is allowing binoculars and/or telescopes for the purpose of viewing targets during BP shoots a good thing?

[BrownBear]

When my eyes were younger I would have said ban the glass.  Now that I need help to see small holes far away, I'm not so emphatic.  I ask myself if I'd be using the glass on a hunt, and it falls into place.  Heck yes!  So why not use it on the range?  Limit it's use to certain periods, maybe for sightins.  It sure beats shutting down the range so folks can walk out to their targets.  But use them while shooting a match?  Why?

[Candle Snuffer]

I think a lot has to do with what kind of shooting match it is.  Example;  If it was our Spring Rendezvous match or at our annual Rondy - then no.  Spotting scopes would not be used, or allowed. 

Now, if it is our monthly ML shoot, then yes we allow them as we're not really going for PC at these matches as much as we're going for honing our shooting skills.  By this I mean that it is easier to use the spotting scope to adjust for your Kentucky windage then to have everyone take one shot and shut down the line so everyone can walk down range and see where their ball struck on the target.  It's not that big a deal to our club as long as they are not used during a PC Match where we're all dressed for the mountains.

With this said, all clubs have their own rules and they should be abided by as to keep peace and harmony.  To many times I've seen the new guys come in and say that we ought to do it this or that way and they haven't even been around the sport five minutes.

[Roger Fisher]

Ol Snuffer has it close to the mark i.e. if a pre 1840 Rondy/Shoot no scopes!  If a shoot where it is not pre 1840 or is not a 'primative' type shoot then I agree scopes are good.  Good for the shooter and good for the club. The shooter can better dope the wind, can quit that target (reentry) if he pulls a shot saves time lead and powder.
The club will sell more targets overall since shooters will not 'waste' an entire relay pounding a target that he has ruined with an earlier shot and is not aware of it!  Scopes can get in the way on a crowded shooting line (well that used to happen) and should not be allowed on the firing line but okay behind the loading tables! This is just my own opinion!!

[Jim Thomas]

Hand held "glass" was discussed and passed at Whispering Pines.   No Tripods.   Target sales was the motive.       

Was curious as to what others have experienced.    We were told that we were one of just a few who didn't allow it.    You know what it's like trying to make everyone happy.     



 

 

 

[Roger Fisher]

Hand held "glass" was discussed and passed at Whispering Pines.   No Tripods.   Target sales was the motive.       

Was curious as to what others have experienced.    We were told that we were one of just a few who didn't allow it.    You know what it's like trying to make everyone happy.     



 

 

 

Thats the way the Susquehanna Sptsmn handled it!!!  I can sometimes see the holes with the glass leaning up against a post; but I usually vibrate too much!

[doug]

     If it is a competition, then I think no because I feel it should be x shots down range and not x shots on the paper.  For informal get togethers then I don't see any problem with them; saves an awful lot of walking and range closures.
      I will make an exception for longer range silhouette type matches where you are shooting in pairs.  Glass seems fairly traditional there.

cheers Doug

[Candle Snuffer]

     If it is a competition, then I think no because I feel it should be x shots down range and not x shots on the paper.  For informal get togethers then I don't see any problem with them; saves an awful lot of walking and range closures.
      I will make an exception for longer range silhouette type matches where you are shooting in pairs.  Glass seems fairly traditional there.

cheers Doug

The use of spotting scopes on longrange gong/silhouette is a good idea, especially if you're shooting out to 200 - 250 & 300 yards like we sometimes do at our monthly competitions using patched round ball.

Some folks bring their .40's and I use my .45 just like a few others.  Sometimes you can not tell if the gong or silhouette was hit unless someone has a spotting scope on the target.  

Even the 125 & 150 yard metal targets can be questionable when using a .40, .45, or lighter caliber, and there are other folks shooting at metal the same time you are.

Also, out here where the wind always seems to blow, you can't always hear that "ting" on those far down range metal targets, so it's good to have someone watching.

Spotting scopes do have their place.  Again, it comes down to the situation and circumstances of the match being held.

  

[Daryl]

Snuffer raises a good point.  I know I've 'lost' targets that were hit, due to the 'old guys' I shoot with, being hearing challenged even without ear plugs installed.  Too. strikes on close plates with heavier calibres down-line mask the small ball's tink. Seems the heaviest targets, the thickest gongs, are placed far away and they don't move much or at all if centred.
  I was talking about a .40 or .45 - note the even smaller bores, especially when shooting the .36's and .32's, the 'scorers' have much more difficulty in hearning the hits.  Someone in the group using a small innocuous set of binocs to 'watch' the hits is a very good idea.

[eldeguello]

It is downright dangerous for me to view a target before all shots have been fired.  If I see a good score shaping up, it's for sure that will cause the next one to go wild....

[Roger Fisher]

It is downright dangerous for me to view a target before all shots have been fired.  If I see a good score shaping up, it's for sure that will cause the next one to go wild....

Thats interesting, when my shots 'feel right' (cept chunk& X stix) I don't look til target is finished.  If I have shot'shots that I don't like 'then' I look.  (Which is often!)

[Daryl]

I don't think glass should be allowed for paper targets - only for metal gongs if the 'hit's are difficult to hear or see.

[Candle Snuffer]

I don't think glass should be allowed for paper targets - only for metal gongs if the 'hit's are difficult to hear or see.

I agree. 

[Dphariss]

Is allowing binoculars and/or telescopes for the purpose of viewing targets during BP shoots a good thing?

Which BP shoots? A primitive match at 40 yards shooting at gongs is different than shooting a paper match from the bench at 200 yards.

Dan

[Jim Thomas]

 Hi Dan,   All BP shoots.

I havn't enough experience to know if more targets get sold/ if it was a good thing.  With the understanding that we were one of a few who were not allowing  "glass", I thought I could get some opinions from those who were and have shot at clubs who do allow it.    

That,  and wondering if a rule change like this may cause some on ALR not to attend a shoot?

       

 

[Wyoming Mike]

Here in Wyoming spotting scopes are mostly banned.  It was found, especially on 100 yard paper, that people would look at the target and see that they only got one on the paper after five shots.  They would keep banging away until they got five on paper.  Banning spotting scopes solved this problem.

Our club hosts a BP cartridge shoot every year that allows scopes.  There is a scoring official with every five shooters.  The scoring officials need to watch the metal targets for hits.  Many times a .45-70 will not clang loud enough at 500 yards to hear and you need to see the bullet splatter.  The same would be true on Muzzleloading long range shoots.

[Daryl]

My coments were directed towards round ball rondy shoots.

[Dphariss]

Hi Dan,   All BP shoots.

I havn't enough experience to know if more targets get sold/ if it was a good thing.  With the understanding that we were one of a few who were not allowing  "glass", I thought I could get some opinions from those who were and have shot at clubs who do allow it.    

That,  and wondering if a rule change like this may cause some on ALR not to attend a shoot?

       

 

Would not bother me for a traditional match anyway.
No scopes  FAVORS the home team when shooting paper targets for 3-10 or more shots in a string.
Then you get into the question of not who is the best shot but who has a rifle specifically sighted for the rifle range being used.
See there ARE other factors besides "they didn't use them in the old days". I could not date when the paper scoring ring target came into use in the US, general use anyway, but suspect that the telescope is about as old.
If you limit yourself to the typical pre-paper target range of 40-80 yards shoot one shot at a time for score (like turkey, hog and beef shoots were often done), allow the shooter to put on his own aiming spot etc then the scope is not a factor. Hit or miss gongs make a scope silly. But are not historically correct for the longrifle.

I prefer having a range officer who keeps and eye on things and disqualifies cheaters. Or as in the case of Schuetzen matches an extra hole at the edge of the paper that matches the shooters bullet removes his highest scoring bullet hole thus a 25 becomes zero or a 5. This discourages such things since the cheater can easily miss a nick at the edge someplace.

I see scopes for competitors as silly for matches using targets other than paper ring targets. If you shoot modern ring targets whats the point of banning other modern equipment?
If you want to use such rules you better make sure people who might drive in from a distance that this is the rule if shooting modern ring targets at 100 yards before they drive to the match.

Dan

[Candle Snuffer]

The use of spotting scopes cover a wide area and is dependant on the match being shot, I feel.

Where they are allowed, it is up to the individual if they will use one, or not?

Common sense pretty much dictates when they shouldn't be used, and/or not
allowed to be used.

Competitors going to a match should be prepared for either.  If spotting scopes are allowed and you want to use one, use it.  If they are not allowed then you simply don't use it.  Shoot the program the way you see fit under the club rules that is hosting the match.

Now with this said,,, I have shot in both type matches where they are and are not allowed.  I'm prepared either way so it's no skin off my nose what the match rules call for because I'm there to compete regardless of the spotting scope rules...

The thing I don't like is where they are allowed - then folks show up and find someone who has a spotting scope and they want to share yours.  To me this is unexceptable, but I do share, (and it's usually someone you know).  Personally, I
did not buy my spotting scope 30+ years ago for someone else.  I bought it for my use and for the matches I shot where they were and are today acceptable.  I find this "leeching off others" when it comes to folks to cheap to buy a spotting scope unexceptable, but again I find myself sharing my spotting scope.  It has even got to the point where these leecher's have actually asked,,, "did you bring your spotting scope?"  Boy that's irritating to me... 

[Daryl]

Ditto Candlesnuffer- the worse are those with their brand new $1,300 Ultra-mag outfit at the gun club- wanting to fire one shot, then walk 100 yards up to the target (closing the range each shot) to see where they hit. They can buy a $1,300 rifle but not a #200.00 spotting scope.

[Candle Snuffer]

Ditto Candlesnuffer- the worse are those with their brand new $1,300 Ultra-mag outfit at the gun club- wanting to fire one shot, then walk 100 yards up to the target (closing the range each shot) to see where they hit. They can buy a $1,300 rifle but not a #200.00 spotting scope.

And this is exactly why many won't buy a spotting scope because they know someone is going to offer theirs up for use so the whole line doesn't have to shut down so they can walk down range and check their target.

Normally these same folks drive off from the range in a vehicle I can only dream of having after it has 100,000+ miles on it, and it's ten years older or more.  Yet they can't spring for a spotting scope?  Frustrating... 

Maybe a person ought to tell them, "for every look you take through my scope and while you're readjusting it, I'll just shoot your high priced rifle and ammunition.  Seems like a fair trade off to me...  Oh, and by the way, I'll be adjusting your rifle scope (or sights) as well..."