Author Topic: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle  (Read 14136 times)

Oldunc

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Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« on: May 08, 2011, 02:25:31 AM »
I've begun a project I've wanted to do for over 25 years.  A mid 1700's Gentleman's Squirrel rifle.  I began building muzzle loaders at age 14 in the early 70's and did well at it.  But a military career in Special Forces kinda cramped my time.  Now that I'm retired... well you know, gotta keep my hands busy.
I'm starting with a grade 1+ curly maple Roman Nose stock, .36 cal barrel.
I'm looking for pics of mid 1700 high end fancy rifles to use as refrence as I build this one for myself.
Oldunc

omark

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2011, 02:48:36 AM »
first off, thanks for your service. you will find many people here with a military background and many of them are retired. welcome to the forum and be sure to ask anything as this is a very friendly, helpful bunch of guys, (and you too, barbie).  ;D  but afraid i cant help you much right now but plenty of people will be right along too help.   mark

Offline Stan

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2011, 04:39:30 AM »
Welcome Oldunce glad to here you are Army. I suggest you pick up a copy of Shumways "Rifles Of Colonial America" . Not only photos of what you are looking for but measurement's also.
Lots of luck.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2011, 05:32:03 AM »
Oldunc,
Small caliber rifles didn't appear much till after the Revolutionary War.  But in the Federal period, there were a good many made in smaller calibers.  Rifles then tended toward being a little more slender.  A book I'd recommend reading is Kindig's Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in it's Golden Age.  It's an old book and the black and white photos are grainy but there is a wealth of knowledge there.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2011, 11:30:21 PM »
Oldunc,
Small caliber rifles didn't appear much till after the Revolutionary War.  But in the Federal period, there were a good many made in smaller calibers.  Rifles then tended toward being a little more slender.  A book I'd recommend reading is Kindig's Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in it's Golden Age.  It's an old book and the black and white photos are grainy but there is a wealth of knowledge there.

There is a 42 caliber Peter Resor in Steel Canvas that could easily be pre-1776.
Pg. 39
Many rifles of the rev war period, if not most, were under 50 caliber.
Dan
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Mike R

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2011, 03:35:08 PM »
Small bore rifles existed in the 18th cent, however were uncommon.  I disagree in part with Dan's statement, my research indicates that although under .50 rifles were common, they were not the most numerous--the average bore size was >.50 in the early years of the American rifle and ~.50 later.  Rifle bores did range from the upper .20s [very rare]through the .70s, so you can justify any caliber you want.  If you desired a "typical" caliber, however, for your time period, it would be .50-.54.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2011, 05:43:03 PM »

There is a 42 caliber Peter Resor in Steel Canvas that could easily be pre-1776.
Pg. 39
Many rifles of the rev war period, if not most, were under 50 caliber.
Dan

Dan, that's one of my all-time favorite rifles.  Also RCA 42 is well under .50 caliber also if I recall correctly.  But I haven't seen any pre- rev. War rifles in what we'd today consider "squirrel rifle" calibers"; .32-.38.  Course they could have been bored out since then, but man they would have been heavy in a smaller caliber.  Which would probably be perfect in a steady squirrel rifle.  I've seen .40 caliber Hawkens made nowadays to save on recoil, lead and powder for match shooting and they were pretty cute.  An early styled rifle in a small caliber would be a pleasure to shoot, but maybe not to carry.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 05:46:35 PM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline JDK

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2011, 08:45:49 PM »
I think it has to do with demand.  I was lead to believe the later guns in the east were more prone to be of smaller caliber after the most of the larger game had disappeared from the east.  Also, by that point the threat to ones life was reduced.  Early on a fella never new what he was going to run into when out in the wilds.  Most folks who had a rifle had only one and counted on it for taking all forms of winged and four legged creatures as well as defending themselves from a variety of two legged varmints....thus the bigger calibers.  J.D.K.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2011, 07:30:32 AM »
Small bore rifles existed in the 18th cent, however were uncommon.  I disagree in part with Dan's statement, my research indicates that although under .50 rifles were common, they were not the most numerous--the average bore size was >.50 in the early years of the American rifle and ~.50 later.  Rifle bores did range from the upper .20s [very rare]through the .70s, so you can justify any caliber you want.  If you desired a "typical" caliber, however, for your time period, it would be .50-.54.

It depends on whether one is researching the rifles that have had little use and considering the statements of the time or examining heavily used rifles as are generally featured in books on the subject. Heavily used rifles that  perhaps were in use for 50 to 100 years are NOT the bore size they were made as since "freshing" was a common practice and will enlarge the bore about .020 each time. This is only one hundredth of an inch per side but it make a 42 into a 44 into a 46 ect etc
Col Hanger stated he never saw a rifle over 36 to the pound (51 caliber ball) in Colonial America stating he had seen many hundreds. J.J. Henry mentions a 48 caliber ball size rifle he used enroute to Quebec after losing his rifle in a river crossing. The replacement, from the way he wrote the account, was likely SMALLER in the bore than the one he was able to buy as a replacement.
Look at the calibers of the rifles in RCA that were "exported" to England in the 1770s-1780s. The Thomas Rifle (RCA 121)  was a Rev War battlefield capture. Even after Durs Egg lapped the bore its still .47 caliber. This rifle was brought to England by Col Hanger a well respected rifleman and military officer.
Many of the larger bore smoothbore rifle stocked guns in collections today were likely used as rifles until the bore size became so large as to be impractical and were then bored smooth or simply never freshed again.
The only gun that I know of that came back from England that is over 50 is RCA 18 and its got vise tracks on the barrel and seems to have wench marks on the breech plug so I surely been freshed at least once. This sort of evidence is common on a great many old rifles/guns that were "repaired" by someone who did not pad the vise or have a proper wrench to remove a breech plug.

For a mid 1700s squirrel rifle, 40-45 caliber is fine and is obviously HC. He did not ask about "typical" (and we don't even know typical). However, if I were concerned with being HC I would not go under 40.
#119 is another early styled rifle in 42 caliber. #108 is apparently Rev War and is 45 caliber. #46 was surely made during the Rev war and in spite of being in used long enough to be converted to percussion is still listed as 48 caliber. #44 is dated 1775 and is 44 caliber smooth. #42 could easily date to the 1760s and is 48 caliber according to Wallace Gusler's 2005 article.
There are actually quite a few under 50 caliber rifles in RCA and several  under 45.

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2011, 07:52:57 AM »

There is a 42 caliber Peter Resor in Steel Canvas that could easily be pre-1776.
Pg. 39
Many rifles of the rev war period, if not most, were under 50 caliber.
Dan

Dan, that's one of my all-time favorite rifles.  Also RCA 42 is well under .50 caliber also if I recall correctly.  But I haven't seen any pre- rev. War rifles in what we'd today consider "squirrel rifle" calibers"; .32-.38.  Course they could have been bored out since then, but man they would have been heavy in a smaller caliber.  Which would probably be perfect in a steady squirrel rifle.  I've seen .40 caliber Hawkens made nowadays to save on recoil, lead and powder for match shooting and they were pretty cute.  An early styled rifle in a small caliber would be a pleasure to shoot, but maybe not to carry.


I have to agree with your caliber observations. I don't think under 40 is proper. 40 is a multi-purpose and would work well for small game, for deer within its range and for rifle matches. Its a 150 yard gun at least for social occasions. Being cheap to shoot is also a factor to consider in Colonial America.

The Resor really is an outstanding rifle. I like it a lot and I love the guy engraved on the PB. Looks like and early form of Kilroy.
I was looking at it today and wondering what its really supposed to be if anything.
I have a A weight 44"  40 caliber barrel.... But I think the contour is too light for a version of that rifle.
Dan

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Offline little joe

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2011, 12:08:34 PM »
Shumway did a couple articles for Muzzleblasts on 2 small bore mid 18 cent rifles. Both were very fancy and possibly done for European royality. One was Danish and I think the other was German if I remember correctly. Possibly some one with a better memory than I can help. Good luck.  LJ

Mike R

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2011, 03:43:51 PM »
If you page through Shumway's RCA v. 1&2, the best collection of early rifles for reference,  you will find exactly one .40 rifle [#133] and three .42 rifles [#s 96, 119 and 135].  The majority of the rifles in this collection are over .50.  If you page through Kindig's book on Golden Age rifles you will find a few in the .30s.  Some of these existed in the late 18th cent and Lewis and Clark carried a .30s bore rifle on their long trek in 1804--that said, their basic rifles were .54s if I recall.  I have put together stats on several hundred original rifles and the average caliber over a long time span was near .50. The average per quarter century beginning with the third quarter of the 18th cent [1750] decreases through time from the mid .50s to the mid .40s in the 19th cent.  The overall spread [range of calibers] does not change much, small to large bores always being present in some amount.  By the late 19th cent squirrel rifle calibers were quite common in the east and Bedford rifles so made lasted through the BP cartridge era.  Southern mountain rifles also were  in the 19th and even early 20th cent commonly made in squirrel rifle calibers.

Offline G-Man

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2011, 05:50:09 PM »
As you can tell from the previous posts you probably won't find a documented  example in the books of a mid-1700s squirrel rifle in the caliber you are wanting to use.   But actually, there are no documented mid-1700s surviving American longrifles anyway. ;)

On the other hand, from your post, I do not read that is necessarily what you are after.  If you just want a squirrel rifle in a small caliber, but built with an early longrifle profile - rather than trying to find an example of an 18th century squirrel rifle to copy -  have at it and enjoy - I have seen lots of small caliber rifles made up patterned off of early rifles with full architecture, including a few 40s that Mike Brooks made based on guns in RCA and they were fantastic. Even 32s and 36s can look great if you just keep things proportioned right. I also recall seeing a great little .36 iron mounted squirrel rifle made by David Wagner at Williamsburg in a very early style.  (Actually, as I recall that gun was inspired by a description of a squirrel rifle ordered by the Royal Goveror of Virignia so although not the norm, perhaps a squirrel rifle is not so far fetched).  And a few weeks ago, I recall posting about  a nice 1780 Dickert style rifle in a .32 caliber by Ed Wenger who posts here frequently.


Since your stock is a "Roman Nose" profile, it sounds like you might be looking at an early (i.e. early here meaning 1770-80-ish) Reading, Berks, or Lehigh rifle - even some early southern rifles as well.    Many of the standard profile swamped barrels have more severe taper and flare than originals anyway, so with some of the A or B weight barrels you can still keep a nice wide or round wrist shape.  

Good luck

Guy
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 05:57:39 PM by G-Man »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2011, 06:07:32 PM »
If you page through Shumway's RCA v. 1&2, the best collection of early rifles for reference,  you will find exactly one .40 rifle [#133] and three .42 rifles [#s 96, 119 and 135].  The majority of the rifles in this collection are over .50.  If you page through Kindig's book on Golden Age rifles you will find a few in the .30s.  Some of these existed in the late 18th cent and Lewis and Clark carried a .30s bore rifle on their long trek in 1804--that said, their basic rifles were .54s if I recall.  I have put together stats on several hundred original rifles and the average caliber over a long time span was near .50. The average per quarter century beginning with the third quarter of the 18th cent [1750] decreases through time from the mid .50s to the mid .40s in the 19th cent.  The overall spread [range of calibers] does not change much, small to large bores always being present in some amount.  By the late 19th cent squirrel rifle calibers were quite common in the east and Bedford rifles so made lasted through the BP cartridge era.  Southern mountain rifles also were  in the 19th and even early 20th cent commonly made in squirrel rifle calibers.

This is a more complex subject than it seems. Its impossible to look at surviving rifles in general and get an accurate idea of original bore sizes.
These are all USED RIFLES.
They have been  RECUT in almost every case. This is what is universally overlooked or ignored in considering bore sizes in ML rifles of the past. The bores were "cut out" as part of normal maintenance.

As previously stated there are early rifles that have been converted to percussion. They likely were used for 75 or more years just as flintlocks. Then converted circa 1835 and used for ANOTHER 50+- years. These rifles were expensive multi-generational tools.
Iron barrels tended to erode faster from hot gases than steel barrels so they tended to enlarge especially at the breech for a few inches even it carefully cleaned the bores still enlarged.
Rifles on the frontier were often left loaded all the time. They were not always perfectly cleaned (tallow is not a perfect cleaning solvent and could be corrosive in itself) since shooting something meant attracting attention so you better reload it ASAP. So they rusted. When they eroded, wore or rusted to a point where accuracy failed they were recut. Depending on usage and the expectations of the owner the bore could need freshing every couple of years. This meant enlarging the mould and often making a new breech plug as well if the threads were now smaller than the bore. This was all common work and is DOCUMENTED to the time.

The rifles used by the L&C expedition were likely 54 (many 1803s are now 58 or 60 caliber BTW). But nobody knows for sure and more importantly they were MILITARY RIFLES. There is no description of them other than the issue rifles being "short". At that time the British had put the 62 caliber Baker (1800) into production so the US needed a SERVICEABLE larger bore rifle than the not very serviceable miss-mash of 50 caliber Contract rifles. The result was the various 54 caliber service rifles developed from 1803 to the adoption of the 58 Minie.

Clark's personal rifle was FRESHED during the return trip BTW. So it changed bore size at lest once during its lifetime.
"April 7, 1806... Some little alterations all which were completed rectified in the Course of the day except my Small rifle, which I found wanted Cutting out."
"April 8...John Shields Cut out my Small rifle & brought hir to Shoot very well.    the party ows much to the injenuity of this man, by whome their guns are repared when they get out of order which is very often."

He likely had to enlarge the mould as well.

I did a study of 281 rifles from the 2 KRA books, Flintlocks only from all time frames.
Of these 281 rifles and smoothbores (81) there were 14 in 44 caliber, 37 of 45 caliber, 60 in 50 caliber, 26 in 52 caliber and 21 in 54. All others were less than 20 specimens. 47 caliber 12 times, 48 caliber came up 18 times, 58-14 times. All others were single digits. Had I omitted the SB the data would have pointed to smaller bores more than it did. I did omit all fowlers and 1/2 oct smooth guns.
I will see if I can get the info into a readable graph tonight.
I seriously doubt that any of them retain their original bore sizes. Many rifles in good condition were freshed or bored and re-rifled in the 20th century to make shooters for the early NMLRA matches, read Walter Cline's book. So one must go back to the rifles that show little use and the WRITINGS of the time that mention bore sizes. Sparse as these are.

The next thing is EFFECTIVENESS vs AMMUNITION COST. In this the 44 to 50 caliber wins at least in the east.
Why shoot a 270 grain (58) ball when a 120 to 180 grain ball will work just as well? Then there is the powder needed for the heavier ball.
Most people in Colonial America were not very affluent and ammunition cost is ALWAYS a concern. This remained the case into the 20th century. The 1886 Win is often found in 40-65. BECAUSE IT WORKED as a hunting arm and the ammo was cheaper than 40-82 or 45-70 or 45-90. All of which were more powerful but the effectiveness was not greatly enhanced. Shoot a deer in the lungs with any of them and they die. Why pay for extra powder and/or lead? A 45 caliber RB kills deer just like a 54 does the holes are smaller but the deer still dies IF the shot is placed right.
If hunting deer  in Kentucky in 1768 "without landowner approval" would a 40-45 caliber be better or worse than a 54? The 54 is going to require significantly more weight in ammo (which you have to pay for AND pack around) and MAKES A LOT MORE NOISE. If I were engaged in this I would use head shots where possible.


One other thing that we must consider is that the calibers listed for any given rifle sometimes changes depending on who is measuring them. So anyone studying bore sizes must consider recutting, reboring both during and after the rifle's original service life. And the fact that some people were apparently not as observant as they could be in measuring and/or detecting rifling traces.

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2011, 06:13:44 PM »
If you page through Shumway's RCA v. 1&2, the best collection of early rifles for reference,  you will find exactly one .40 rifle [#133] and three .42 rifles [#s 96, 119 and 135].  The majority of the rifles in this collection are over .50.  If you page through Kindig's book on Golden Age rifles you will find a few in the .30s.  Some of these existed in the late 18th cent and Lewis and Clark carried a .30s bore rifle on their long trek in 1804--that said, their basic rifles were .54s if I recall.  I have put together stats on several hundred original rifles and the average caliber over a long time span was near .50. The average per quarter century beginning with the third quarter of the 18th cent [1750] decreases through time from the mid .50s to the mid .40s in the 19th cent.  The overall spread [range of calibers] does not change much, small to large bores always being present in some amount.  By the late 19th cent squirrel rifle calibers were quite common in the east and Bedford rifles so made lasted through the BP cartridge era.  Southern mountain rifles also were  in the 19th and even early 20th cent commonly made in squirrel rifle calibers.

One example is all that is required to document that a 1770s 40-44 caliber as HC and that was the original question.
If it were me I would not make an early rifle in 40. I would make something like a 1780-1820 rifle. Probably an Armstrong.
The poster wanted to know if a squirrel rifle in early style was correct. It is. Not necessarily a 1860s caliber squirrel rifle in 28 or 32 but a 40ish rifle is usable for squirrels and will work for other things as well. Its not perfect for any of these things but its a good compromise.

Dan
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 06:20:09 PM by Dphariss »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2011, 09:10:17 PM »
This is a chart of calibers of 281 flintlock guns in the two KRA books " A True American Heritage" and "Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750-1850. No original percussion guns, 1/2 octagonal guns or obvious fowlers were included.
 154 are in the 44 to 50 caliber range.

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Offline bgf

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2011, 11:14:38 PM »
Nice chart -- not a university study, but a good start at figuring out this kind of question.  Looking at the distribution, I almost wonder if they weren't nominally started at what are  our standard calibers (e.g. 45, 50, etc.) and then reamed out to the odd sizes we usually expect.  .50 cal for that period seems to correlate with our modern .30 cal centerfires, i.e., popular because it can handle just about anything, although a few chose smaller or larger calibers either for well-thought out reasons or in a few cases just to be different :).

For the original question, I can't see why a .32, .36, or perhaps .40 in a light swamp wouldn't do the trick.  Maybe not 100% HC, but it wouldn't look totally off.

Offline Maalsral

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2011, 12:04:27 AM »
I am glad that the 1700's gun builders didn't limit themselves to building historically correct guns!
Mark Thomas

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2011, 03:32:48 AM »
Nice chart -- not a university study, but a good start at figuring out this kind of question.  Looking at the distribution, I almost wonder if they weren't nominally started at what are  our standard calibers (e.g. 45, 50, etc.) and then reamed out to the odd sizes we usually expect.  .50 cal for that period seems to correlate with our modern .30 cal centerfires, i.e., popular because it can handle just about anything, although a few chose smaller or larger calibers either for well-thought out reasons or in a few cases just to be different :).

For the original question, I can't see why a .32, .36, or perhaps .40 in a light swamp wouldn't do the trick.  Maybe not 100% HC, but it wouldn't look totally off.

 Its just something I did years ago for my own amusement. Its does give an idea of the bore sizes though.
Relying on others to do the measuring assures its not 100% correct. The only valid way to check bore sizes is with a set of plug gages in .001 or .0005 increments. But this can get expensive if gages from .30 to .75 are needed. The sight funneling found on many original rifles can cause the common tapered bore gage to give a caliber 1-2 calibers over the actual bore.
A well read   friend has mentioned a citation that claims that some prefer a ball the size of a Pea and others a ball the size of a Cranberry. So if we can figure out the size of an average Colonial Cranberry we have a clue as to a large bore rifle ball ;D

Dan
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Offline huntinguy

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2011, 08:08:37 PM »
I am glad that the 1700's gun builders didn't limit themselves to building historically correct guns!

Good thing I wasn't drinking coffee when I read that.  ;D

Dphariss
 
I have seen other charts, such as yours, and they all have agreed with your data. A very good study indeed. I have always wondered why 45 and 50 showed to be more common. The refresh idea makes sense...

As for the pin check, I do agree that is the only way to get very close... but considering the tools that the original gunsmiths had on hand, I don’t think breaking down to .001 really matters, those working ranges didn’t really happen until much much later. I understand the muzzle wear issue with measurements but… besides pins don't tell if a hole is round or not.

With everyone thinking about the guns so much, what about the manufactures? I am sure their tools wore and they had to resharpend their drills and reamers, especially the colonial manufactures, as purchasing replacements would have been expensive. As the barrel reamers were resharpend their diameter would have gotten smaller, we are not talking about high speed or cobalt steel here, (hence the don’t worry about .001 differences in bore diameter, after all most were just gauged by ball weight). But, I have not done PC barrel making so I am only inferring from what I know about manufacturing.

Back to Maalsral’s comment. I would tell the OP, Pretend you are a wealthy landowner and tell the gunsmith what you want and feel special knowing that your rifle was made to “your own personal specifications”


Anything worth shooting is worth shooting once.

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2011, 04:40:13 AM »
I've begun a project I've wanted to do for over 25 years.  A mid 1700's Gentleman's Squirrel rifle.  I began building muzzle loaders at age 14 in the early 70's and did well at it.  But a military career in Special Forces kinda cramped my time.  Now that I'm retired... well you know, gotta keep my hands busy.
I'm starting with a grade 1+ curly maple Roman Nose stock, .36 cal barrel.
I'm looking for pics of mid 1700 high end fancy rifles to use as reference as I build this one for myself.
Oldunc
It seems a lot of folks were so interested in talking about what they know (or believe they know) about early rifle calibers that they missed the part where Oldunc said he was starting with a .36 cal barrel.
"If you accept your thoughts as facts, then you will no longer be looking for new information, because you assume that you have all the answers."
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Daryl

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2011, 05:55:52 PM »
Clark had a squirrel rifle with him on the 'trip'. It was said to be .30 cal.? I wonder when it was built? Yes - I recall it was 1802? (remember it vividly :D)

Offline Longknife

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Re: Mid 1700's squirrel rifle
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2011, 06:26:00 PM »
Oldunce, Thank you for your service!!!! As far as the rifle issue, the "Roman nose" style was a generaly considered a product of the "Bethlehem" school of  gunmaking in  Northhampton Co., and or Lehigh Co. in the third quarter of the 18th century. There are no Mid century rifles bearing the roman nose profile in existence (that I know of). The Roman nose stocks were much thinner and slimmer than the mid century rifles so fitting earlier parts to a slim roman nose stock may be an issue. If you have the classic "Lehigh" Roman nose stock pattern you may be better off to do a search on that style. Here is a little info to start with....Ed

  http://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/riflesets/bethlehemlehigh.html
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 07:29:39 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg