PA Rifle but where and who? (toeplate pictures added 6/20)

[flintriflesmith]

This rifle is a family gun and the owner has asked to remain anonymous but I believe y'all will enjoy seeing the pictures and perhaps be able to shed some light on who and where.

To my limited knowledge of PA rifles it looks like an interesting mix of Lancaster and Lehigh/Allentown. Post your thoughts here or send me a PM.

Gary




Note curve to toe line and the slight step.







Lock looks like a 1950-60 reconversion with Dixie Gun Works parts.

[flintriflesmith]

A few more pictures --- for some reason they wouldn't all fit in one posting.

[woodsrunner]

Don't I see some Dickert influence 

[B.Habermehl]

I was thinking Dickert until I saw the side plate. If the side plate is original then may be it is the primary clue to attribution?

[B Shipman]

John Brooks. There is nothing to make an attribution, but the smell is there. Prehaps someone with something I have not seen can find something similar. Lancaster then  very early Harrisburg area.

[mr. no gold]

Could be one of the Aldenderfers. They began up in the north, but but went down to Lancaster. Kindig shows a grand rifle by one of them and there may be some common traits here with those guns. Nice rifle Gary, and I hope that you are going to assist in preserving it. Thank you for posting the photos. Much appreciated!
Dick

[Eric Kettenburg]

Looks like that crazy bastard Isaac Berlin.  

I'm feeling a little silly this morning - no way to really pinpoint the gun but there are some interesting details thereupon and my first gut feel was Berlin, despite the wrapping....

On a side note, that "Lancaster Daisy" absolutely DID get used up the Delaware river between Philadelphia and Easton.

[G-Man]

I assume you are pretty certain it is from PA, but for what it's worth the patchbox, carving and tang shape look to have some similarities to guns attributed as early Piedmont North Caroilina guns  - i.e. some of those that look like the work of transplanted PA makers.

Guy

[Fullstock longrifle]

Thanks for posting the pictures Gary, it's a very interesting rifle.  I agree that it's Pennsylvania, but every picture seems to show features from a different region of Eastern PA.  Sometimes you just never know for sure who the maker was, but I do know that I would like to have it in my collection!  

FK

[Don Getz]

There are those who have created that new "Alemengle" school, maybe this gun should be the start of a new Lancaster-
York school, someone who lived right on the border.  This is coming from memory, which isn't too good, but isn't the carving behind the tang somewhat York....Schroyer?.........Don

[Blacksmoke]

With my limited knowledge of old originals - I am looking at the breech tang.  If it is original to the gun, isn't the pointed tail indicative of "post 1800" even 1830's - 1840's on a Pennsylvania gun?
Hugh Toenjes

[G-Man]

It isn't the norm on Lancaster or York guns in the 18th century.  Some PA rifles occasionally used the notched/thumbnail finial. There may be least one or two "unattributed/maybe PA/maybe southern" guns in RCA that have pointed tangs.   But squared/flared seems to be the norm.

On the other hand, short pointed tangs like this were not uncommon by the 1790s (if not 1780s) in Virgnia and North Carolina.

And as has been pointed out, this gun saw a lot of use so it could have been rebreeched.

The York and Lancaster influences traveled far southward by 1780.  Those locations, as well as Maryland, Virginia or North Carolina would not surprise me for this gun.  

Guy

[bgf]

I'm with you on this, Guy, although I assume the PA attribution has some basis.  Transplant to NC via several moves in Valley of Va.. would be my guess.  The sideplate (not unlike Upper Valley designs), patchbox and star would not be impossible anywhere, although the patchbox looks more at home in NC outside of PA.  Something about the toe line is remarkable.  The double molding line and the stepped wrist are early (as suggested by BP) Va. or NC, but don't look like SW Va. typically does due to lines cut in BP, esp. in conjunction with that curve.  The tang looks dubious to me, but suggests SW Va. or more likely NC in light of the other things.

[flintriflesmith]

... And as has been pointed out, this gun saw a lot of use so it could have been rebreeched.
Guy

If you look carefully at the inletting of the tang and the way the carving (although damaged) flows around it, I believe you will see no evidence of the barrel being rebreeched.

Gary

[G-Man]

It looks original to me too Gary, but I will be the first to admit I have a hard enough time spotting such modifications when I have them in hand, much less photos - so I trust your judgment!  Personally, I am hoping it is the original tang.

PS - I really like the small eight pointed star carved in the area surrounded by the C-scroll behind the cheek - anyone seen this on another rifle?  Looks fairly unique.  The little incised knobs on the lock and sidplate panel molding finials are also a little atypical and may also help pin it down - although they do turn up now and then - even on English guns.

Guy

[Eric Kettenburg]

It's later and I've had a lot of coffee, so I don't feel so silly now.  The more I look at it, the more strongly I feel that there is a connection to Berlin, or I should say, the signed rifle and the unsigned pieces attributed to him in comparison.  Also, I have examined a rifle which I feel is probably an early John Moll with almost identical tang carving - not that it really means anything, but there it is.  I feel pretty strongly that this rifle has some kind of Northampton County connection.

[smylee grouch]

Gary, Is the forend cap open on the end? Does kinda look like a Allentown rear sight too.   Smylee

[bgf]

Compare the sideplate to the one in this thread:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=16364.msg153644#msg153644

That one is believed likely to be Va., but also is unknown.  To me, the sideplates look almost identical in design, just a bit different in execution.

[Shreckmeister]

Forgive me, but I see little or no relationship between these sideplates
other than the silhouette which is only similar.

[rich pierce]

I see the combo of Northampton and Lancaster signatures but not the Berlin connection.  Distinctive lock panels on most Berlin guns and can't imagine him not engraving the patchbox.  Some influence tho.

[G-Man]

Just for fun I will throw this out there - the buttstock architecture - i.e. the just slightly curved toe and the way the lower straight edge of the cheekpiece gets carried forward and rearward a bit past the edges of the cheekpiece itself - sort of undercutting those areas - calls to mind some of William Antes'  work.  Patchbox could also fall into his stylistic realm.  I have not studied his work in enough detail to speak to any other possible similarities.

Guy

[DaveM]

Gary, you mentioned this is a family gun.  Does that mean it has been in someone's family for many generations?  If so, it would be interesting to hear the family's perspective on its origins, and where the family was from.  It is rare for a piece like this to have a potential history connected to it.

Dave

[Eric Kettenburg]

Are there initials on the back of that buttplate?  I see a WH or HM, depending on which way you look at it - like they were scratched in a long time ago.  Could just be coincidence, staining or scratches that look like initials.

[Eric Kettenburg]

One would *expect* the box to be engraved, but then the sideplate is shaped for engraving also and yet is blank....  it may simply be an issue of what someone was willing to pay for.

[JCKelly]

Left butt carving, including how the lower edge of the cheek piece is handled, looks very much like John Haga, Lancaster. This patchbox is simpler than JH's, this sideplate much fancier. Me I think the butt is Lancaster . . . no comment on patchbox.