Author Topic: Aniline dyes?  (Read 8184 times)

Red Owl

  • Guest
Aniline dyes?
« on: June 25, 2011, 06:14:35 PM »
I have a marginal piece of maple with some curl. I'll either false stripe or try to bring out as much curl as possible.  On some furniture finishing websites they talk about staining with an aniline dye and immediately wiping off the excess dye and letting the rest dry. Then sand the wood to remove the dye from the areas between the stripes and then light stain and finish. Do any of you do it that way? Would an oil finish over an aniline dye be okay or would it bleed the dye?

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12694
Re: Aniline dyes?
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2011, 06:22:20 PM »
I have in the past used Fiebing's leather dye to stain maple and it can produce some fabulous colour.  It is an alcohol based dye and deeply penetrates the wood.  It does not bleed out through the finish.  But it is not UV safe.  Exposed to sunlight over a long period of time and it will bleach out to a lighter colour than you first achieved.  That said, I have seen some of my rifles from twenty and thirty years ago that still have maintained their colour, and one other in particular that ended up very light.  Perhaps the density of the maple is the difference.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7057
Re: Aniline dyes?
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2011, 07:07:03 PM »
Hi Red Owl,
I've used aniline dyes for many years.  They can fade in direct sunlight but I've not had that problem or at least not that it was noticable.  All of the guns below and pistol case were stained with water soluable aniline dyes and finished with either a varnish or polymerized oil.  The woods shown include cherry, black walnut, sugar maple, mahogany, and English walnut.  No bleeding under oil and you can mop the stain on easily.  If the color is uneven, mop on water to even it out.

dave






"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12694
Re: Aniline dyes?
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2011, 07:31:34 PM »
Beautiful work Dave.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

brobb

  • Guest
Re: Aniline dyes?
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2011, 08:42:28 PM »
Smart Dog
Very nice, very clean and precise work.  Is the rifle barrel that is in the picture with the pistol faux damascus?  If so did you do it and or can you explain how it was done?  Thanks

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9928
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Aniline dyes?
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2011, 08:51:58 PM »
I don't see any point in using stains and dyes that are not color fast.
A decade or two is not very long in the life of a firearm.
Added on curl will simply look like added on curl.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7057
Re: Aniline dyes?
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2011, 08:57:04 PM »
Hi Bruce,
I don't want to stray from Red Owl's thread.  Below is a link that explains what I did on the second page.  Thanks Taylor and Bruce for the comments.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8046.0

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline okieboy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 822
Re: Aniline dyes?
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2011, 09:47:34 PM »
 I have used anilines for years on furniture. First you need to know that there are three basic types of anilines available, water based, alcohol based, and NGR (non grain raising). They have different light fastness. My experience is with alcohol based, because that was what was used on mission furniture and because I was using it in conjunction with shellac, which is cut with alcohol, so the dye could be used to tint the shellac when needed. The idea of the color changing over time does not bother me any more than metal and wood gaining a patina. Also if something does lighten too much for my taste, I can always just give it another coat or two of finish darkened with black or brown dye.
 I am working on the dye for my build right now and I started with Laurel Mountain Forge dyes as I want to use their sealer and finish, but I am mixing different LMF dyes and also aniline concentrate to get the color that I want. I do a test piece then add a few cc's of "adjustment" to my mix using a syringe from the farm store and do another test. For me this is a pleasant task. 
Okieboy

Red Owl

  • Guest
Re: Aniline dyes?
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2011, 10:08:29 PM »
What are some of the brand names of suitable aniline dyes- if in fact that is the best way to make the curl "pop"?  Where do I buy it? Thanks.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7057
Re: Aniline dyes?
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2011, 11:08:37 PM »
Hi Red Owl,
The best way to make curl "pop" really is a matter of personal preference and objectives.  If a nitric acid-based (aqua fortis) or acetic acid-based (vinegar) stain gives you the color and curl you like, they are probably the hands-down best stains to use because they actually oxidize the wood rather than stain it.  That means they never fade and they generally highlight curl very vividly.  However, in my experience, they are $#@*-shoots with respect to color and often do not meet my needs for achieving my objectives.  They also tend to be boringly monochromatic when used alone.  I can control color and achieve a deep polychromatic effect readily with aniline dyes, however, they can fade if left in bright sunlight over time. Nonetheless, I've had good luck with them over 30 years.  My preferred method for curly maple is to paint the wood with dilute nitric acid (not aqua fortis or ferric nitrate, no iron in the mix), let dry, and blanch with heat.  It will usually turn a soft orangy-pink color.  I neutralize acid in the wood with a baking soda or some alkaline solution.  Then I paint the stock with brown-colored dyes or stains.  I usually use aniline dyes for this.  The acid gives the wood a deep reddish undertone that highlights the curl and the dyes add darker color without obscuring the reddish undertone.  There are stains that you can use to paint over the nitric acid and achieve beautiful results as well but you want to experiment to make sure they don't obscure the grain with actual pigment.  I currently live in a place where getting pure nitric acid is difficult and expensive.  Therefore, I use red aniline dyes on maple to get the red undertone, however, I would rather use the dilute nitric acid.  You can get aniline dyes from Brownells as well as most good woodworking stores (Lee Valley, Woodcraft etc.)  I believe Moser is one company that makes oil, alcohol, and water soluable aniline dyes. 

Keep in mind, water-based dyes or stains (all the acid stains are water based) raise the grain of the wood, which has to be whiskered.  That is not a problem for unadorned guns but can be an issue if you have lots of relief carving.  If that is the case, you might want to consider oil or alcohol-based dyes or stains.  I still use water-based colors on my carved guns but I very carefully clean up any whiskered wood in the carved areas with razor sharp knives or scapers.

dave             
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Red Owl

  • Guest
Re: Aniline dyes?
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2011, 09:58:37 PM »
Thanks

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9928
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Aniline dyes?
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2011, 05:47:39 AM »
AF stain, if its made right, does not oxidize the wood. The color comes from heat converting the iron the stain carries to form the color. The acid is only needed to make the iron into a form that will color wood when heated.
While its possible and even common fore some to stain wood with a AF stain that is highly acidic its not necessary oxidizing the wood would make it browner rather than reddish. Ferric Nitrate made from crystals works well. Just like stain made with acid in most if not all trials.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

trimegistus

  • Guest
Re: Aniline dyes?
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2011, 01:58:54 AM »
I have no experience using aniline dyes but i recently came across an article which stated sodium acetate (used in hand warmers and as a food preservitive) acts as a stabiliser to keep the dye from fading due to UV exposure.  I am not sure how one would apply this chemical, maybe someone could experiment.  Sodium acetate is cheap and safe to handle.

Offline Jerry V Lape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3030
Re: Aniline dyes?
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2011, 07:39:23 AM »
I have experimented with LMF stains (alcohol based stain) over wood treated with aqua fortis to see what could be done with those together.  I have learned I can blend several coats of LMF over AF and still retain the well defined curl AF brings out and add some background and highlight colors with the stain to my tastes. 


keweenaw

  • Guest
Re: Aniline dyes?
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2011, 04:13:00 PM »
I've bought most of my aniline dyes from WoodFinishing Enterprises.  They have a huge assortment of colors in anilines as well as a wealth of other hard to find traditional finishing stuff like resins, natural pigments, extracts, and biologicals.  As I understand it, the lightfastness is best in the water solubles, then the alcohols and least in the oil solubles.  There is also a lightfast series of alcohol solubles that are available in mixing colors.  I've used primarily the water solubles and found most use for the mahogany shades like standard red, medium red and dark red brown as what I'm usually doing is just slightly bumping up the red tones after an initial staining with AF.  I've never used any of the maple shades but some might be good.  All of these are extremely concentrated,  1 oz will dye many stocks.

Tom