Author Topic: Questions regarding Le Paige percussion pistol project.  (Read 8549 times)

Offline Rolf

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Questions regarding Le Paige percussion pistol project.
« on: July 06, 2011, 12:21:42 PM »
I've ordered a set of lock parts and breeches from Blackley. The parts are cast copies off an original pistol. The wax copy of the breech is cast without removing it from the barrel. Only the nippel is removed. (the picture is of the original barrel).The casting is a solid "lump" of metal that will need a lot of machining.
The rear 2" of the barrel is included in the casting to make it easier to mount in a lathe. I have to turn down the rear 1/2" of the barrel section, thread it and drill out the powder chamber.



The breech is 22mm (7/8") across the flates. I plan to use a strait octagon barrel, 12" long, caliber 40, 7/8" wide. Stonewall creek has Rayl pistol barrels this size. These barrels are threaded for a plug 9/16"x 18TPI .

1.Would this plug size be suitable for the threaded portion of the breech plug?

2.What should the diameter be before threading?

3.Where can I get a die suitable for cutting thread in a breech plug?

4.How big should I drill the powder chamber?

Best regards
Rolf
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 10:59:27 PM by Rolf »

Offline Captchee

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Re: Questions regarding Le Paige percussion pistol project.
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2011, 04:31:20 PM »
Quote
.Would this plug size be suitable for the threaded portion of the breech plug?
IMO should be fine as long as the casting is good

Quote
2.What should the diameter be before threading?

  Myself I let the Tap im using dictate the size .  In the case where im making a plug  for a barrel that’s already threaded , I mic the thread  and turn to  a couple thousands  over .
 But you have to know what the tolerances  your lathe is capable of  in comparison  
 If your using a die  one should  keep in mind that all  dies are not  the same even though they are marked  with the size  and pitch your looking for .
 This is why having a matching tap and die is important

Quote
3.Where can I get a die suitable for cutting thread in a breech plug?

 ToW should have the Die you need . they used to anyway . myself i by all my tap and dies through  the local machinery supply .
 The great thing about this is I can get lazy and just take the barrel in . tell them I want a die . The mic the threads and then  give me a choice of tolerances which usually means when buying a set , a higher cost . If just buying the die alone , tell them you want it as close as possible .
Also tell them what your doing and that you need to cut threads all the way to the base of the shoulder of the plug . If you don’t you may end up with something along the lines of a standard die which will leave you a 3/16 or so that you will have to  file a  thread .
 also you do realize that you can tune those threads on your lathe  with the proper tooling

Quote
4.How big should I drill the powder chamber?

 myself i  go 1/4 . but thre are considerations . IE the leanght of the plug to the flash channel and such . keeping in mind the bigger the  chamber , the more powder your going to need to fill it
 i also cup the face of the plug .



on another note .
it bugs me that  these castings are available only in one piece . note sure why this is done . i ask TRS about this one time and they told me that  it was because they had issues with the tang and breech matching . personally i see no more of an issue then would happen with any other  hooked breech . IMO its probably more  to do with cost then anything else .
 so if your casting is a 1 piece and you going to  hook breech it , make sure you  account for  the hook on the breech when you separate  the tang / standing breech . A good casting will give you room for this and still have room for  cutting the threaded section .

 Here is the current  piece im working on .
She still has a ways to go as you see she still has building screws in place

  Stock is purple hart “customer request “
  Barrel is  a 7/8 Douglas  of 45 cal . " cal as per customer request  "
Everything else I have made .
Set trigger , breech , tang , lock , final ,TG …….
She also  be engraved  with gold and silver inlay . As I said lots of work yet to go  , to include finishing up the carving and  backgrounds  of the carvings and building the adjustable rear sight .
 not to mention lots of  finish and prep work .
 I will tell you that there is nothing simple about building a LePage or reproducing  of any of the other makers who built  these style of pistols.
so if you have not built a custom pistol before , your going to have a very big row to hoe  



 


PS. in my photos the parts are only set in place  so i could take the photos


« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 09:42:30 PM by Dennis Glazener »

Offline Rolf

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Re: Questions regarding Le Paige percussion pistol project.
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2011, 08:03:21 PM »
Thanks for you answers, Captchee.  The pistol you are building looks impressive.
I 'm a newbee, at gun building. So far, I've built three pistols. Barrels and locks were bought, the rest made from scratch.  Here are links to the pistols.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=9799.msg92444#msg92444
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14643.0

The first pistol was a trial run for the pair with silver fittings. I have access to a Le Paige style pistol that I plan to model the stock after.
At this stage I feel the biggest challenge for me is machining the breech plug. Never done anything like that before.

I can't find any threading dies at TOTW website. What do you call dies that cut threads all the way to the base of the shoulder of the plug ?
Where can I find a matching set of taps + dies for 9/16 x 18TPI?

Best regards
Rolf
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 10:54:46 PM by Rolf »

Offline Captchee

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Re: Questions regarding Le Paige percussion pistol project.
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2011, 02:07:21 AM »
thank you for the kind words .
 judging from your photos , you should have little problems with the LePage .
as to the taps . i find that  amny of the adjustable special pitch dies  as well as the better quality re threading dies  will cut all the way  or very close to it
 i order through
 www.idahomachinery.com


Offline smallpatch

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Re: Questions regarding Le Paige percussion pistol project.
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2011, 07:39:21 AM »
Captchee,

Do you have any details of your single set trigger.  I'd really like to get one for a target pistol project, and am having a rough time finding one.  I tried to order one from Pedersoli, but they want $360 for one.  Not gonna happen.  That's more than all the rest of the parts put together.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Questions regarding Le Paige percussion pistol project.
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2011, 03:58:47 PM »
Have you looked a Stan Hollenbaugh's double action, single set trigger?
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Questions regarding Le Paige percussion pistol project.
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2011, 04:00:39 PM »
Dr Tim,

Yes, I talked to Stan, and said he didn't think it would work for a pistol.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Questions regarding Le Paige percussion pistol project.
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2011, 04:02:34 PM »
too bad, very nice concept.

De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

Offline Captchee

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Re: Questions regarding Le Paige percussion pistol project.
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2011, 05:28:07 PM »
   What I ran into was that  I could not find a set trigger that would work . Either they needed to be way to deep or their trigger plate was wrong .. Thus  often  complicated by spring issues . Also I wanted the trigger to be double action  in that it would fire set or unset .
 So what I did was  mill a new  trigger plate  to the shape I wanted  and then based the rest around  what L&R uses for their  single set . But my parts are much lower and thus doesn’t need to set as deep . Other then that , it works the same way . inf fact i used an L&R  main triggerbar from an L&R single set . i also used the L&r springs but i had to  re cut the other bars  within the group as they needed to be smaller  so that everything would set lower  in the tiggerplate
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 05:47:19 PM by Captchee »

Offline Artificer

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Re: Questions regarding Le Paige percussion pistol project.
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2011, 07:18:00 PM »
Captchee,

Do you have any details of your single set trigger.  I'd really like to get one for a target pistol project, and am having a rough time finding one.  I tried to order one from Pedersoli, but they want $360 for one.  Not gonna happen.  That's more than all the rest of the parts put together.

Wow, that's a lot of money for that set trigger.  I had to work one of those about four years ago as customer had disassembled it and screwed up the adjustment.
Gus 

Offline Artificer

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Re: Questions regarding Le Paige percussion pistol project.
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2011, 07:36:48 PM »
Captchee,

I saw some original pistols of this venue being fired at the World Championships in 96 and 98 at Wedgnock, UK.  Some were French and others were Swiss.  Looks like your pistol will be right at home with the best of them. 

I had to fix an original Nicholas-Noël Boutet saw handled flintlock dueling/target pistol there in '98 and was humbled by being in the presence of a true Master's work.  Some modern butcher went at the tumbler and sear with a snag grinder to "work the trigger" before the Captain of the French team brought it to compete with it.  I first almost cried and then got really upset and am glad that butcher was not around to suffer the wrath of what he had done to that pistol.  I am not nearly as good as many folks on this board, but I was able to fix it well enough he could compete with it and then get it properly fixed once he got home. 

Gus

Offline Captchee

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Re: Questions regarding Le Paige percussion pistol project.
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2011, 06:00:53 AM »
Captchee,

Do you have any details of your single set trigger.  I'd really like to get one for a target pistol project, and am having a rough time finding one.  I tried to order one from Pedersoli, but they want $360 for one.  Not gonna happen.  That's more than all the rest of the parts put together.

Wow, that's a lot of money for that set trigger.  I had to work one of those about four years ago as customer had disassembled it and screwed up the adjustment.
Gus 
the  pedersoli price doesnt suprise me any . about par for the course conserning their parts anymore .

as to the pistol . thank you for the kind words . alot of work yet to go

Offline Rolf

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Re: Questions regarding Le Paige percussion pistol project.
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2011, 12:56:32 PM »
Gus, with the set of castings I ordered from Blackley the tang and breech are cast separate.


The lock kit comes with all the interal parts. The triggergard, trigger and butt cap are available, but I plan to make these myself.






Best regards
Rolf
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 12:57:48 PM by Rolf »

Offline Captchee

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Re: Questions regarding Le Paige percussion pistol project.
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2011, 05:04:30 PM »
  are you going to do the  solid  rear sight version or are you going to do the adjustable rear sight version ?


the reason i ask is i would be interested to know just how this type of rear sight is set up under the tang . I have an idea but i dont know for sure .

Also how good were the castings  fit ?
 I did a LePage from  castings from TRS some years ago and  their tang and breech were
all in one  with no rear sight . I didn’t care for that  and have always though for the price
And what your buying , they would  cast them correctly
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 05:06:23 PM by Captchee »

Offline Rolf

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Re: Questions regarding Le Paige percussion pistol project.
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2011, 06:43:55 PM »
Gus, I plan to do the solid rear sight version. As for fit, I havn't seen the casting jet.  Blackley cast the parts for my order today. I'll get them in a couple of weeks. I'll post picture when I get them. But if they are of the same high quality as the rest of the stuff I've got from Blackley, there won't be a problem. 

Best regards

Rolf
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 09:14:25 PM by Rolf »

Offline Captchee

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Re: Questions regarding Le Paige percussion pistol project.
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2011, 09:58:15 PM »

here are the other photos you ask for ROLF, you didn’t leave me an e-mail in your PM so ill post them here as im going to be out for  most of the day .
also i believe i have others with the same type of rear adjustable sight  but ill have to look through my photo collection
1 of a box set
Faure LePage, at   Rue Richelieu , exact date made isn’t listed . but approx 1890 do to the Nouveau ornamentation.












« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 10:01:12 PM by Captchee »

Offline Rolf

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Re: Questions regarding Le Paige percussion pistol project.
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2011, 10:08:23 PM »
Wow!!!! That was incredebly cool!!!!!

Best regards
Rolf

Offline Captchee

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Re: Questions regarding Le Paige percussion pistol project.
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2011, 06:49:55 PM »
 Ya I thought so to . Though it is over the top to most   that I have photos of .
 Myself I rather liked the barrel fluting  effect . But even this doesn’t seem to  have been done across the board  as some I have seen simply had no flutes to single deep flutes , to  simply doing a 16 side shape .
 One of the pistoles I have photos saved  for , also has  a standard common TG . But  it has been completely  opened up around the engraving  on the bow of the guard , which give a very nice effect . Im seriously thinking of doing that on  the one I’m building . Only time will tell  as I progress in the build  though .
 here is another photo of the  box set of the above pistol that i found in my files . also some other photos of diffrent pistol  with the adjustable type rear sight