Author Topic: Help Me Understand Trigger Geometry and Action  (Read 4857 times)

Rasch Chronicles

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Help Me Understand Trigger Geometry and Action
« on: August 03, 2011, 08:09:01 PM »
I've been following Rolf's Trigger build with some interest. Unfortunately, I didn't take pictures of the trigger set that came with my Fowler, nor did the lock arrive in time before I left.

Could you fellows please direct me to picture of a trigger and lock so that I might understand how the devil these triggers work. I'm usually quick to pick up a mechanical device, but I am completely thrown off by the multiple engagement points involved. Without both the trigger and lock together, I am all confused.

Best regards,
Albert “Yes, I am still in Afghanistan!” Rasch
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Offline tallbear

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  • Mitch Yates
Re: Help Me Understand Trigger Geometry and Action
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2011, 08:10:50 PM »
Best place would be Track of the Wolfs website.Most are their in full color.

Mitch

Offline Glenn

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Re: Help Me Understand Trigger Geometry and Action
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2011, 04:06:51 AM »
I gotta throw in and "second" this request.  I get a little confused when checking out double set triggers myself.  An explanation and maybe even a tutorial would be greatly appreciated.  THANKS !!!   ;D
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Help Me Understand Trigger Geometry and Action
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2011, 07:09:09 AM »
What kind of fowler are you building that has a set of double triggers?
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Rasch Chronicles

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Re: Help Me Understand Trigger Geometry and Action
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2011, 10:03:30 AM »
Mr DTS,

No, the Fowler has a single, but mine was a more general question. I bought the book on triggers (its name slips my mind at this moment) that everyone recommends, but I did not bring it with me to A'stan. It was enough to bring "That Dark and Bloody River" (Great book!) in two Ziplocks, I wasn't going to risk another one!

These double set triggers have me perplexed, and since everyone seems to show either the lock or the trigger individually, I can't seem to get it right in my mind.

Much obliged!

Best regards,
Albert “The Afghan” Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Help Me Understand Trigger Geometry and Action
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2011, 03:24:36 PM »
Some of my old blather on plain triggers in this album: http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/Tom45-70/Designs/Triggers/

Does not apply to set triggers.

Tom
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 03:47:59 PM by Acer Saccharum »
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ironwolf

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Re: Help Me Understand Trigger Geometry and Action
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2011, 03:27:56 PM »
  A double set, double acting trig can fire the gun in both the set and unset conditions.  While unset, just pressing the front trig raises its blade to contact the locks sear bar. Just like a simple trigger found in the common fowler. So the geometry, the relation of blade length, pin location and lock sear engagement dictate the force and trigger stroke needed to trip the lock. Just like the simple trigger again.

  To "set" the mechanism, the triggers must be "cocked" if you will by pulling the REAR trigger back until the nose of the rear trig. blade engages a "sear'" on the front trigger blade while under spring tension. (look at Dans' drawings) The tiny screw seen between the two triggers adjust the amount of engagement of the two triggers allowing for a very small amount of stroke to be applied to the front trig. releasing the REAR trigger blade, allowing it to slam upward into the locks sear bar, firing the gun.

  A single acting, double set trigger (two triggers) works the same way but has no blade on the front trigger and will not fire the gun in the unset mode.

  A single, set trigger ( as in Dans' photos) has only one trigger and is set and released by manipulating the trigger.

 Easier to understand with one in your hand.


   Hope this helps
   Kevin W.

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Help Me Understand Trigger Geometry and Action
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2011, 03:36:51 PM »
Al, Kevin has explained it very well.   One thing to keep in mind when you install a double set trigger.   The rear trigger does not "push" the sear to release it, but rather it "slaps" it.   When the trigger has been released, and the lock is in a
fired position, the rear trigger should be loose, or not touching the sear bar of the lock.    It should not interfere with the
sear when the lock is cocked...............Don

Meteorman

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Re: Help Me Understand Trigger Geometry and Action
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2011, 04:56:16 PM »
Hi Albert -
It all becomes clear once you have both in your hands, but I realize that is difficult or impossible given your current situation.



the rear set trigger is pulled, which loads the larger leaf spring to the rear, until the nose of its knife slides by and under the "engagement point" of the front triggers blade assembly.  You can see in the above that it's a very small engagement point. 
In this position, the blade of the rear trigger is held down by that wee little engagement point, and the rear trigger spring is loaded for business.

So now a very light pressure on the front firing trigger trips the engagement & releases the rear trigger blade, and  - since it's spring is loaded - it snaps up throughout it's range of motion.

Except, of course, on its way up, it will hit the sear bar of the lock (red dot above), which disengages the sear from the tumbler, and fires the lock etc etc. 

So what do you need to worry about when putting these parts together in a build ? probably more than I'm aware of - but somewhere near the top in importance is the positioning of your trigger assembly (fore and aft aspect) with respect to the sear.  Obviously the rear blade has to hit the sear bar.
I had an assembly where I messed up and the blade just slid by (behind) and jammed on the sear bar - fixed that by soldering on a hardened bar to add length to the knife.

also need to worry about the relation between the sear bar and trigger blade in the unset postion (controlled by the depth of your trigger assembly - but can also be adjusted by modifying the height of your trigger blade. 
Don't want your rear trigger blade bearing on your sear bar in the unset position.  dangerous.
(so in the "unset" pic above, there really should be a small space between the red dot and the rear trigger blade!!!)
In older pic below, you can just see the trigger blades in the sear bar hole in the lock inlet.  Obviously you need to have a pretty good idea exactly where your sear bar is when you start to position your trigger assembly.



You will note in Rolf's trigger thread that Jim K. says that the angle of the blade in relation to the sear bar doesn't really matter, the energy in the spring should trip the sear.  If it doesn't, one checks for wood interference, binding, and correct spring tension.

Others with more more experience probably have more to add (and they already did since I started writing this!).
In short, once you get back to the good ol' U.S. of A and get both parts in your hand, it becomes pretty clear how it all works.
be safe,
mike m

Rasch Chronicles

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Re: Help Me Understand Trigger Geometry and Action
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2011, 07:52:28 PM »
Albert sits looking at his LCD screen while the local mullahs fill the air with their version of "Rock me Amadeus" (Hey, that's what it sounds like to me.) and says:

Ohhhh. That's how it works!

Mike, for the life of me I didn't get the engagement of the knife, and its relationship to the set trigger. Now I understand. Thank you for taking the time to post the pictures and explaination.

Looking at pictures of locks now I see how the sear bar is struck. That had me confused too, as I was used to the regular modern firearms engagements. Now I am tracking.

Fellows, again thank you for your time and consideration! I truly appreciate your continued patience and tuteledge on these subjects!

Best regards,
Albert “The Afghan” Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles
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