Author Topic: Otc to round rifled barrels  (Read 8714 times)

msmith

  • Guest
Otc to round rifled barrels
« on: August 13, 2011, 10:13:17 PM »
Seems to me that most of the Oct. to Round "Rifled" barrels were on the early or "Golden Age"  Kentucky Rifles..Seems on the later guns if you see Oct. to Round, they are smooth bores.(fowlers,smooth rifles or buck & ball).Is this correct or do you believe some of these  were rifled and smoothed out over the years?..Is there any way to tell if they were rifled to begin with? Another thing I have noticed that you seldom see a Oct. to Round "Rifled" barrel Kentucky Rifle for sale?.Am I missing these or is this also the case??....
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 10:15:42 PM by msmit »

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18939
Re: Otc to round rifled barrels
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2011, 12:22:25 AM »
Hot topic if one is passionate about rifles vs. smoothbores.  Quick answer is, there's no way of knowing.  Circumstantial evidence I use to gauge (pun intended) the odds of a rifle-built gun (rifle style guard and rear sight present) having been rifled in the beginning, and smoothbore now.

1) Double set triggers.  They don't make sense on a purpose-built smoothie.

2) Some 7-sided appearance at the muzzle.  Could be a collector's trick though.

3) Octagon barrel.  This adds a little likelihood it was originally rifled.

Opposite approach; features increasing the odds that a "rifle-built Kentucky" that is a smoothbore now, always was:
1) No rear sight, ever. 
2) Round or octagon to round barrel
3) big gauge w/o evidence of re-breeching
Andover, Vermont

Offline HIB

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 347
Re: Otc to round rifled barrels
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2011, 04:06:25 AM »
Gentlemen,  This years Kentucky Rifle Foundation's display at the Lexington CLA show will feature "THE COMMON MAN's GUN: Smooth rifle, Buck & Ball Guns, Fowler's and Just Plain Gun."

The Smooth Rifle's significant characteristic is that it has a full octagon smooth bore barrel. The Buck & Ball Gun has an octagon to round thick walled barrel. The Fowler may have an octagon to round barrel or a full round barrel. The Fowler generally has no grip rail or cheek rest and a rounded toe. Whereas the smooth rifle and buck & ball gun have a grip rail, cheek rest and squared toe. All the above may have rifle type sights. The grouping of examples all were made by 'Kentucky Rifle' gunsmiths and does not include the New England or foreign made guns.

I for one do not recall ever seeing a rifled octagon to round barrel. Not to say there weren't several made. The practical nature and versatility of the smooth bore, however, made guns with this feature quite popular with the common man. Pretty much a three in one weapon especially if accuracy beyond 60 yards was not a requirement.

I would venture to say that the vast majority of guns made during the so called Golden Age were originally smooth bore by design.

It is true there are numerous accounts of full octagon barrels being 'freshed' out by the local gunsmith. However, I have yet to figure out how to tell if the gun was originally rifled. There may be some on this site who may have mastered the ability to tell and it would be a unique offerring should they come forth with the answer to the mystery.  Regards, HIB 

Offline Habu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1139
Re: Otc to round rifled barrels
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2011, 05:20:38 AM »
I've seen one relic octagon-to-round barrel that was rifled.  It was a junk barrel a friend purchased at Brimfield.  On initial examination it was obvious the barrel had been shortened at both ends and converted to percussion.  At one time a rear sight had been present, but the dovetail was empty.

The breechplug was removed to pull an old load and examine the bore.  When cleaned, traces of rifling remained, mostly in the middle part of the bore.  I've never been sure if the gun was poorly bored smooth, or if it was a nominal "smoothbore" due to wear. 

Careful examination with a bore scope might reveal similar traces in some currently-smooth barrels without necessitating the removal of the breechplug.  I'm not sure how meaningful this would be unless a guy examined a significant number of such barrels. 

Jim

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9758
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Otc to round rifled barrels
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2011, 08:37:37 AM »
Gentlemen,  This years Kentucky Rifle Foundation's display at the Lexington CLA show will feature "THE COMMON MAN's GUN: Smooth rifle, Buck & Ball Guns, Fowler's and Just Plain Gun."

The Smooth Rifle's significant characteristic is that it has a full octagon smooth bore barrel. The Buck & Ball Gun has an octagon to round thick walled barrel. The Fowler may have an octagon to round barrel or a full round barrel. The Fowler generally has no grip rail or cheek rest and a rounded toe. Whereas the smooth rifle and buck & ball gun have a grip rail, cheek rest and squared toe. All the above may have rifle type sights. The grouping of examples all were made by 'Kentucky Rifle' gunsmiths and does not include the New England or foreign made guns.

I for one do not recall ever seeing a rifled octagon to round barrel. Not to say there weren't several made. The practical nature and versatility of the smooth bore, however, made guns with this feature quite popular with the common man. Pretty much a three in one weapon especially if accuracy beyond 60 yards was not a requirement.

I would venture to say that the vast majority of guns made during the so called Golden Age were originally smooth bore by design.

It is true there are numerous accounts of full octagon barrels being 'freshed' out by the local gunsmith. However, I have yet to figure out how to tell if the gun was originally rifled. There may be some on this site who may have mastered the ability to tell and it would be a unique offerring should they come forth with the answer to the mystery.  Regards, HIB 

The smooth bore as the common man's gun everywhere is supposition.
There is a lot of mentions of rifles in America from the 1740s on and there is significant documentation from the time to support this. In fact 10% of a militia force in 1680s NY were rifle armed.
But.
Just like today most people had no use for a gun of any kind other than militia duty. So this skews the entire argument as far as numbers go if everyone in the militia has a gun and the vast majority have a smooth bore of some kind there are going to be far more SBs than rifles. But what the people that actively USED firearms had would almost certainly be different. But then someone with poor eyesight or no shooting skills would have little use for the rifle  no matter where he was. The rifle, documented, is less costly to shoot in the 1750s than the typical smoothbore fowler or trade gun.
On the frontier with significant numbers of natives with rifles, documented, the rifle was more popular with settlers. In the way the natives made war the rifle would be hard to deal with if armed with "nothing better than a common fowling piece" (a quote from a man who was carrying one in 1790) or musket. A rifle will easily hit a man at 150 yards. A distance where the smoothbore of the time was virtually useless.
That the natives with a rifle would take a rest from behind and tree and "seldom misseth their mark" in the 1750s is documented. The same quote includes the 150 yard distance.
That the natives would buy rifles from settlers at "monstrous price" is documented. That some of these settlers were so poor that the rifle was the biggest part of their estate is documented.
This is all contained in DeWitt Bailey's "British Military Flintlock Rifles". From the bibliography included in the book the information is not very hard to find.
Sure there were smooth rifles. There is one in the Cody, WY Museum by JP Beck. There is documentation of rifle stocked smooth bores with "very small bores" in the 1750s. Its obvious that the smaller bored smooth guns were likely always smooth.
But what some farmer in 1750 or 1820 SE PA had was not necessarily what some one on the frontier may have had in same era
Remember the rifle companies of 1776-77 generally came from the frontier. Where did all these guys come from if the common man had a smoothbore? The Frontiersman was about as common as people got. Remember the Battle of Point Pleasant was apparently fought with rifles, at least thats what Gusler has stated. I have not the slightest idea if its true of not.

Then we have people getting off boats on the Ohio in the late 18th century and being met with derision because they were carrying a fowling piece. I can't cite this but have read it.

Then we have Sir William Johnson writing of a trip to Philadelphia that the people in PA did not shoot with shot. If this is the case there is little advantage in having a smoothbore. Unless its for looks or for militia duty.

And finally is the smoothbore is so versatile where did all those rifles come from? Seems to me that NOBODY would have had one if the unchoked smoothbore was so useful. The answer is that it was not nearly as useful, especially with small shot, as many today would like to think.
It takes FAR more powder and lead to kill small game with a smoothbore than a rifle. Is just a fact.
Dan

He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline nord

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
Re: Otc to round rifled barrels
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2011, 03:54:34 PM »
Have a look at the Solomon Silknitter rifle in the Library & Museum. It's a fairly late percussion piece, it's about as fancy as I've ever seen a halfstock, it's documented by Whisker, and it's most certainly rifled.
In Memory of Lt. Catherine Hauptman Miller 6/1/21 - 10/1/00 & Capt. Raymond A. Miller 12/26/13 - 5/15/03...  They served proudly.

Online JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4227
Re: Otc to round rifled barrels
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2011, 04:35:11 PM »
Bruce,
Not to disagree, but I don't think that Silknitter is a good comparison. It's a late late period gun, with no intention by the maker of it ever being a buck and ball gun.
That barrel looks like it could just as easily belong on a oct/rnd barreled breech loading Sharps rifle, and they were never meant as buck and ball rifles either.

John
John Robbins

Offline nord

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
Re: Otc to round rifled barrels
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2011, 05:57:00 PM »
Absolutely correct! Likely a chunk gun with that heavy barrel. I expect very accurate even with iron sights. It's just that the half octagon half round barrel is rather rare and unexpected. For that matter so is a halfstock from the Hundingdon/Bedford area at the time it was made.

My intuition on the gun presented by Union Son is that it was never intended to be a fowler. Whether rifled and bored out smooth at a later time or an original smooth rifle I have no idea.

The best I can say is that this piece should probably be considered a rifle variant based on the barrel construction (octagon to round) with emphasis on rifle due to the patchbox. Whether a smooth bore from the maker or bored smooth at a later time, this is a nice piece without question.
In Memory of Lt. Catherine Hauptman Miller 6/1/21 - 10/1/00 & Capt. Raymond A. Miller 12/26/13 - 5/15/03...  They served proudly.

Online Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4300
    • Personal Website
Re: Otc to round rifled barrels
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2011, 06:27:32 PM »
There are so many variations between a classic flintlock rifle and a fowling piece, I question whether trying to categorize them will be practical.  For me these labels never seem to work too well.

As to octagon to round rifled barrels, I believe a couple of JP Beck rifles exist with barrels of this configuation, if I remember correctly.

Jim

Online JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4227
Re: Otc to round rifled barrels
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2011, 07:16:47 PM »
The Smooth Rifle's significant characteristic is that it has a full octagon smooth bore barrel. The Buck & Ball Gun has an octagon to round thick walled barrel. The Fowler may have an octagon to round barrel or a full round barrel. The Fowler generally has no grip rail or cheek rest and a rounded toe. Whereas the smooth rifle and buck & ball gun have a grip rail, cheek rest and squared toe. All the above may have rifle type sights. The grouping of examples all were made by 'Kentucky Rifle' gunsmiths and does not include the New England or foreign made guns.

I for one do not recall ever seeing a rifled octagon to round barrel. Not to say there weren't several made.
Regards, HIB 

I agree with Henry's' above descriptions. The only sticky wicket would be a smooth rifle,, whether the barrel was originally rifled then bored smooth, or originally made smooth. As far as I know there's no way to determine the original condition at this point.
I like buck and ball guns and have a couple. Generally they have long slender tapering barrels, and are very graceful looking. As I mentioned in another post, I have one with a straight rifled (no twist) barrel. I wonder if the straight rifling was to try to make the shot, as well as the ball, shoot straighter?
John



Not a good picture, but all I have on this computer.
John Robbins

msmith

  • Guest
Re: Otc to round rifled barrels
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2011, 08:23:16 PM »
I thought I read straight rifling made a dirty bore a lil easier to load...I doubt that  that was the reason for it though...The first spiral or twist in rifling may have been made by a rifle maker who could not make a straight cut?????

realtorone

  • Guest
Re: Otc to round rifled barrels
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2011, 10:19:07 PM »
Since late (percussion) has been brought up,I have an " A.S.Jones " Ky maker with an  Alonzo Chinn Barrel which is Oct.to round.About 38 Cal, turned for a bullet starter, and where it turns Oct To round the flats are scalloped except the top flat runs all the way to the bullet starter undercut .Jones was in business in the 1850's . The rifle will be in the forthcoming book on Ky.Makers

Offline flintriflesmith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1509
    • Flintriflesmith
Re: Otc to round rifled barrels
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2011, 11:14:08 PM »
I offer this short web article for consideration in the question of straight rifling.
http://www.flintriflesmith.com/WritingandResearch/WebArticles/straightrifling.htm

The militia rifles built in the Virginia Manufactury in the early 19th century had octagon to round barrels and were definitely rifled. At one point the state legislature even argued among thenselves about the decision to use Oct-Rd barrels. Some of the representatives from the western counties, AKA rifle country, contended that all rifle barrels should be full octagon!

Gary.
"If you accept your thoughts as facts, then you will no longer be looking for new information, because you assume that you have all the answers."
http://flintriflesmith.com

dannybb55

  • Guest
Re: Otc to round rifled barrels
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2011, 03:22:22 AM »
I have seen some Deringer-rifles with round barrels on auction sites and Krider used surplus Common Rifle barrels on some of his too. Didn't the Indian Department want Treaty rifles to have round barrels?

Offline mr. no gold

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2654
Re: Otc to round rifled barrels
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2011, 04:09:00 AM »
In all my years of interest in Ky Rifles, I have seen only one rifle with a half round barrel
that was turn/spiral rifled. It was an unadorned gun, (no PB), with a roman nose stock and the signature 'Zimmer' on the top flat in cursive. It looked like a Berks gun or Upper Susq' piece. Of greatest note however was the fact that had a 'U.S.' branded on the toe flat, in the wood. Other than what you read here, I know nothing about the gun, nor where it might be found today. I do recall that the barrel was quite long and that it had a cheek rest and a rather plain maple stock. Furniture was brass, and the gun was flint, apparently orignal. The owner was mystified about the gun, and that is exactly how I have remained over the years.
Dick

Offline Don Getz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6853
Re: Otc to round rifled barrels
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2011, 04:35:24 AM »
About 25 years ago, a gentleman stopped by our barrel shop with a gun that had J.P.Beck parts on it, but was a re-stock
by someone many ears ago.   He wanted to take a look at the bore, so we removed the breech plug and sure enuf, it had
straight rifling.........and it was an octagon to round barrel.  I have also seen Beck rifles that had octagon to round barrels........................Don

Offline HIB

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 347
Re: Otc to round rifled barrels
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2011, 04:58:57 AM »
Gentlemen,  Let us take this discussion back to the original general topic of "are there octagon to round barrels that show evidence of rifling?" or something like that. I mixed it up alittle by talking about the "Common man's"gun and my opinion regarding whether or not octagon to round barrels were ever rifled. Just because I have never seen one doesn't mean they weren't produced during the so called'Golden Age'. A portion of my post had a few disclaimers amongst the sentences. ie: "Golden Age" and "where accuracy beyond 60 yds. was not a requirement"

"Golden Age" puts us in the general area of guns made by a local 'Kentucky Rifle type' gunsmith after the Revolution up to about the first few years after the turn of the century. I think Kindig coined the phrase and intented it to mean a 25 year period. For the most part the term applied to highly decorated guns. The term still applies today but I think most collectors would agree to several years before the end of the war and several years beyond the turn of the century and include the well made simple gun as well as the ornate.

I also believe my thoughts on the subject should be further broken down by regions of use. As an example: I have a great friend who has done his best to expose me to southern guns from this same general time period. His analysis of the guns in his collection may support my thoughts or change my opinion. The collector from Ohio may do the same.

So. The plan is to document as many guns as I can access to determine the facts. Granted I will have a tough time with the 'Now' smooth bore full octagon barrels but I will definately move the question to regions.

What I need is your input in order to make sense of the situation from let's say 1780 to 1810. Regardless of the furniture or carving displayed on the guns in your collection I would like to know how many fit into the 'Smooth rifle [full octagon barrel but now smooth bore]' category. How many fit into the Octagon to Round smooth bore category and how many fit the American made Fowler catagory [excluding New England Fowlers and Hudson river Fowlers]. Please understand I have a great deal of respect for the excluded guns but as of yet they are not recognized by the KRA as being of the 'Kentucky Rifle' type nor made by a gunsmith who falls into the 'Kentucky Rifle' mode.

Also excluded in this study are foreign made guns and military pieces and military pieces converted to civilian use.

In your answer to this request please state the region you believe the gun was made and the date you feel the gun was first sold. The gun can be simple or elaborate but must fall in the 1780 to 1810 [plus or minus a year or two] time frame and have been made by a 'Kentucky Rifle' type gunsmith in order to be considered for this study. Contact me directly or thru this highly valuable site.  With respect, HIB