Big bore carbines

[Habu]

I've been contemplating a rifled coaching carbine for close-range hunting for years, but I think a PM from Daryl has persuaded me I don't want one quite that short (14-18" barrel).  Back to the drawing board . . . . 

There's always the "Griffin rifle" built for Montgomery in 1750, with a 24" barrel in .75 caliber.  Does anyone have experience shooting a 20 gauge or larger rifled barrel of about that length?  I'm interested in velocity, more specifically, if velocities of around 1,500 fps or higher are practical in a barrel that size. 

Thanks,
Jim

[BrownBear]

I doubt you'll get those vels.  I can't get close out of a 42" barreled Bess and I start having trouble holding on with 140 grains of 2f and around 1200fps. 

My "biggest" shortie is a 58 cal with a 24" barrel.  It points out another issue you'll have to contend with.  All my hunting pards have named it DANG!!!! because it's so blessed loud, even with mild 80 grain charges.  I can only imagine what 150+ grains would be like from a shortie.  Great for 4th of July maybe.

[Habu]

What size ball are you using in that Bess, and how are you loading it?  Using a wad and bare .735" ball, I was getting 1200 fps in a 30" Bess carbine.  (We won't mention recoil, or the dents in the roof over the firing line. . . )  I don't recall ever recovering a ball, even from a buffalo, so I guess that might be a more-practical velocity goal. 

I used to shoot a short-barreled .50 cal. (I got tired of my Derringer trade rifle hanging up in the brush, so I clamped it in a power hacksaw and chopped barrel and stock all at once).  1800 fps was about the max I could get with it after that, but it shot well and made a fine brush gun. 

Noise might be another issue, but between earplugs and already being half-deaf, it should be manageable! 

Jim

[BrownBear]

It was a patched .715.  Like you, that Bess was too danged long for my uses and I traded it off.  I'm shooting a "carbine" Bess from Pedersoli now with a patched .715, but haven't been inclined to take it past 110 grains.  Come to think of it I've never measured the barrel.  It patterns shot much better with 1f than 2f, and my next move will be to try 1f under a ball.  

What charge are you using to get 1200 from that 30" barrel?  You can certainly "infer" that lopping another 6" off your barrel is going to cut your vels below 1200, and you'll be looking at even larger charges to get 1500.

[Dave Faletti]

My short 75 is 29" long.  150FF gave 1200fps.  Too much recoil and I lost more velocity than I cared for compared to my longer barreled one.  I went to 125FF which I never chrono'd but did fine on elk though its a rainbow round. No farther than 100yds but good for most all my shots.  I can't see going shorter.  Held vertically it doesn't extend above my head so if I can get thru a brushy spot it won't make it any harder.

[Habu]

BrownBear, your carbine is what I started with (it got rebarreled over the years, and the lock re-built/replaced/rebuilt).  If I remember right, it will probably mic about .753". 

If I remember right, the 1,200 fps load was somewhere in the 120-140 gr range of "rifle powder" (a 50-50 mix by weight of FFG and FFFg--1 can of each).  The load column was probably more important: powder/.125 nitro card/bare ball cast of wheel-weight lead in a Lyman .735" mould/over-shot wad.  Keep an eye on your touchhole diameter as those liners they use will quickly shoot oversize. 

From what Dave is saying (thanks Dave), the .75 may not give me the velocity I think I want--but then again, how much velocity do I need for a rifle I won't shoot past 50 yards?  I may need to re-think that.

Or maybe I should just re-think the idea yet again.  After I finish the current rifle, I was going to build a .54 pistol--maybe I should just up the bore on that and call it good?

Jim

[smokinbuck]

Habu,
I've been loitering around your thread with open ears. I have squirreled away a .62 caliber, rifled, Sharron barrel that is 33.5" and 1" across the flats. It has a 1-66 ROT.  Been contemplating a big bore hunting rifle but haven't decided to do it yet.
Mark

[Habu]

Habu,
I've been loitering around your thread with open ears. I have squirreled away a .62 caliber, rifled, Sharron barrel that is 33.5" and 1" across the flats. It has a 1-66 ROT.  Been contemplating a big bore hunting rifle but haven't decided to do it yet.
Mark

Where's the "jealous" emoticon?  That is so cool!  That barrel could persuade me to give up on the big bore carbine idea and build a full-length 20 gauge rifle.  Back in the '80s when Sharon started making those, I was squirreling away every penny I could.  Unfortunately, I'd just gotten married and had a wife in college, so I never managed to get one. 

If you ever decide to sell it, give me a shout.  I'd love to have it for sentimental reasons--that would almost give me all the parts to build the rifle of my teenage dreams. 

Jim

[BrownBear]

Or maybe I should just re-think the idea yet again.

If the 1500fps you first cited is important, then by all means a drop in cals is probably in order.  It's easy I think with a 58-62, and perhaps with a 69 and more recoil.    I never use my short (24") 58 much past 50 yards, and it is a fer-sure game stomper with only 100 grains of powder, which is yielding no more than 1300, if that.  My 62 smoothie has a 32" barrel and 120 grains of powder will get your attention, even if I doubt that is topping 1500 either.

[bob in the woods]

I built an Edward Marshall rifle in .62 cal from a Chambers kit, and with it's swamped 37 in barrel, you couldn't ask for a nicer handling large cal rifle IMO. I built it as my moose rifle, since we spend a lot of time in a canoe. The balance is perfect, and so far I've got it shooting well with 120 gr FFg and a denim patched .610 ball.  I am also playing with 130gr FFg and a felt wad, then the patched ball. I have no doubt that this will shoot clear through a moose. I haven't determined the velocity as yet, since I'm waiting to settle on a load, however, I'm pretty certain I'm getting better than 1200 FPS.   Incidently, the E.M. stock design handles recoil extremely well.    It deserves to be more popular in the hunting field !

[Leatherbelly]

   Hi Jim,
    I'm thinking a .62 would fill the bill. Lots of these barrels around. Buddy has a Rice in .62 and I'm sure it would run a hard ball through a moose or elk lengthwise.Might do the same with pure lead, not sure. Enough gun for almost everything on this continent. A 69 will do it all, including the BIG bears. I'd still want backup for the big Polar or Alaska bruins,me thinks.

[Habu]

The original idea for this carbine was two (well, three) roles: 

     1. Hunting in heavy brush

     2. Following up game that reaches the really dense brush, stuff you have to belly-crawl through. 

     3.  Bears.  I have a bear problem--they seem to like me.  This is the main reason for desiring 1,500 fps.  Removing the bear problem from the table, I can drop the needed velocity drastically.  I test-fired a short "Terry Texas Ranger" 12 gauge double today, with heavy loads and patched round balls.  I think I'll find a decent double and rework it for the bear issue (but not that short--maybe 20-24" or so barrels).  It won't give me the velocity I'd like, but it does have two shots. 

I'd still like a carbine for the first two roles.  For that, a .62 would work out rather nicely, leaving the question of design.  I better go do some re-thinking. 

Thanks to everyone for the help working out my thoughts.  You've helped me go from wanting one big-bore carbine, to recognizing the need for a big bore pistol for dense-brush follow-ups, a big bore carbine for brush hunting, and a short double for those pesky bears.  What a wonderful group of friends!   

Jim

[Rasch Chronicles]

Always happy to help! 

Best regards,
Albert “Afghanus” Rasch
Mama Domicenti’s Kitchen: Albert Tries Market Hunting
ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!

[Daryl]

I probably mentioned this, Jim - the 14 bore is probably as large a size as you are going to get 1,500fps with a load that is comfortable, in a 30" to 31" bl. You've seen the recoil picture of my rifle - that's the 1,500fps load. 69fpe recoil and easily absorbed by the over 2" wide butt plate - and an almost supple body.

My Musketoon has a 24" tight bore of .574".  Shooting a .565" pure lead ball (Lee.562" mould) along with a .021" ticking patch(calipers) with 75gr. 2F, I get 1,308fps. I was surprised.  For stricktly hunting, I'd certainly use up to 120gr. of 2F & pure lead ball and I suspect the speed might climb upwards to 1,700fps or thereabouts - or maybe 1,600fps. Due to the small diameter of the bore, I'd not try WW balls unless a smaller mould was available, or an attempt with paper ctgs. I'd be concerned the deep grooves in the breech would promote blow by with the paper and alight it producing a fire hazard.

A 21" .50 cal I had, had no difficulty making 1,800fps at 90gr. 3F - or maybe it was 100gr.

Ed Rayle will make you any length, any calibre, any twist, etc.  The 30" length is great in my opinion as all-round length.

   James Forsyth would prefer 24" to 26", in 14 bore (2 barrels of course, however 1 would suffice for us). The lands would be narrow, groove depth about .008" and a 104" twist.

 I'd personally go with an 80" to 85" twist max. 28" to 30". The powder charge to achieve descent hunting speed could run 120gr. to 140gr. easily. The gun should weigh 9 pounds to 9 1/2 max. A straight 1 1/8" bl. will be necessary, with decently dense wood to make 9 to 9 and a tich pounds at 26"- 28" bl. length. Just a guess. Mine weighs 9 1/2 pounds with 31" bl. and English Claro stock.

[BrownBear]

I probably mentioned this, Jim - the 14 bore is probably as large a size as you are going to get 1,500fps with a load that is comfortable, in a 30" to 31" bl. You've seen the recoil picture of my rifle - that's the 1,500fps load. 69fpe recoil and easily absorbed by the over 2" wide butt plate - and an almost supple body.

My Musketoon has a 24" tight bore of .574".  Shooting a .565" pure lead ball (Lee.562" mould) along with a .021" ticking patch(calipers) with 75gr. 2F, I get 1,308fps. I was surprised.  For stricktly hunting, I'd certainly use up to 120gr. of 2F & pure lead ball and I suspect the speed might climb upwards to 1,700fps or thereabouts - or maybe 1,600fps. Due to the small diameter of the bore, I'd not try WW balls unless a smaller mould was available, or an attempt with paper ctgs. I'd be concerned the deep grooves in the breech would promote blow by with the paper and alight it producing a fire hazard.

A 21" .50 cal I had, had no difficulty making 1,800fps at 90gr. 3F - or maybe it was 100gr.

Ed Rayle will make you any length, any calibre, any twist, etc.  The 30" length is great in my opinion as all-round length.

   James Forsyth would prefer 24" to 26", in 14 bore (2 barrels of course, however 1 would suffice for us). The lands would be narrow, groove depth about .008" and a 104" twist.

 I'd personally go with an 80" to 85" twist max. 28" to 30". The powder charge to achieve descent hunting speed could run 120gr. to 140gr. easily. The gun should weigh 9 pounds to 9 1/2 max. A straight 1 1/8" bl. will be necessary, with decently dense wood to make 9 to 9 and a tich pounds at 26"- 28" bl. length. Just a guess. Mine weighs 9 1/2 pounds with 31" bl. and English Claro stock.

That's a genuine pot of gold!  Thanks from all of us that are dinking around in this realm. 

[Habu]

Thanks for the numbers.  I've pretty much recognized that with serious loads, this carbine won't be comfortable to shoot.  I agree that a 30" barrel would be better as an all-around rifle. 

I've got a set of Harrison's Short Barrel German Jaeger blueprints on the way.  Just approximating from a lousy online photo, if the LOP on that rifle is 13.5", the barrel is probably around 22".  I want to get a look at the drawings, see how issues like barrel contour were addressed in the original.  Then maybe I'll have a better idea of what I want to do.  I've got a nice chunk of 3+" black walnut tucked away for various projects, but it isn't as dense as claro.  That's going to take some thought as well. 

[varsity07840]

My big bore shortie is a rifled original 1842 Springfield .69cal cut back to 26" as done with CSA Macon conversions, although I've never seen a rifled one. It started out as a smoothbore and I sent it to Bob Hoyt for a rifled reline and put a repro rear musket sight on it.  I haven't tried charges heavier than the service load, but even that should be a short range thumper on whitetail.

[Daryl]

The service load for the rifled .69's (after they were recalled and rifled) was 70gr. with a 730gr. minnie.

The original rifling (when done) was progressive depth - did Bobby rifle it standard or progressive depth?

What twist please?

What load are you using?   Theoriginal round ball paper ctg. load for the 1842 muskets was 135gr. with a .65" round ball.  Is that what you are using?  It will certainly DO for whitetails.

[camerl2009]

with a big hunk of lead like a .735 round ball witch is 1 3/8oz or so at 1200 fps you have 1900 fpe at the muzzle and at 50 yard you have 1410 fpe

that give you a Thornily Stopping Power of 275 witch is 25 over the 250 needed for Hippopotamus , Rhinoceros, Cape Buffalo, Elephant 

my dream gun is a 8 bore flinter but i can get barrels up to 2 bore im just not brave enough to touch that big of a gun off 

[varsity07840]

Bob did the barrel with 3 groove progressive depth rifling, 1/72 twist. I'm using 70 gr behind the 500 gr Rapine semi wadcutter. No need for the original style, especially in a lightweight carbine. I may try some patched roundball. They shoot very well out of a "hybrid" flint 1816 with a rifled and sighted Whitacre barrel with spec as the carbine.

Duane

[Dphariss]

with a big hunk of lead like a .735 round ball witch is 1 3/8oz or so at 1200 fps you have 1900 fpe at the muzzle and at 50 yard you have 1410 fpe

that give you a Thornily Stopping Power of 275 witch is 25 over the 250 needed for Hippopotamus , Rhinoceros, Cape Buffalo, Elephant 

my dream gun is a 8 bore flinter but i can get barrels up to 2 bore im just not brave enough to touch that big of a gun off 

I have often wondered what the MV was of the 10 bore John Taylor used to kill the "13 good Bulls".
6 drams, 164+- gr of powder, probably did not exceed 1450 I would think.
Yet he claimed he never lost an animal he shot with it. He killed several rhino with it as well. All with lung shots.
Which brings up the question of why people need to shoot 300-500 grain conical bullets at an animal weighing no more than 400 pounds when a 700+- gr RB will kill one weighing in excess of 10000.

Dan

[camerl2009]

with a big hunk of lead like a .735 round ball witch is 1 3/8oz or so at 1200 fps you have 1900 fpe at the muzzle and at 50 yard you have 1410 fpe

that give you a Thornily Stopping Power of 275 witch is 25 over the 250 needed for Hippopotamus , Rhinoceros, Cape Buffalo, Elephant  

my dream gun is a 8 bore flinter but i can get barrels up to 2 bore im just not brave enough to touch that big of a gun off  

I have often wondered what the MV was of the 10 bore John Taylor used to kill the "13 good Bulls".
6 drams, 164+- gr of powder, probably did not exceed 1450 I would think.
Yet he claimed he never lost an animal he shot with it. He killed several rhino with it as well. All with lung shots.
Which brings up the question of why people need to shoot 300-500 grain conical bullets at an animal weighing no more than 400 pounds when a 700+- gr RB will kill one weighing in excess of 10000.

Dan

round ball has proven to out penetrate conical bullet too in big bore guns id use a hard cast round ball especially for dangerous game  one day i want go take  the big 5 but i dont go on planes

[Dave Faletti]

Dan I think you are about right on the velocity.  My 11 bore with 150gr went 1300fps.   I wonder if "enough gun" goes up in the same proportion as the animal size. If the animal is 10 times bigger than an elk does it take a bullet with 10 times the lethality(however you want to measure it).

[Habu]

Dan, I chrono'd a short-barreled (20") heavy 10 gauge shotgun today.  With 160 grains of old Elephant FFg and a denim-patched .750" ball the velocity was just under 1300fps.  For anyone inclined to try this load, I recommend not capping the second barrel as that load just might bounce the second lock out of half cock. . .   (Before anyone asks, it only happened once.  I may be a slow learner but I can learn.) 

As for the carbine, the Short Barrel German Jaeger blueprints arrived last week.  The LOP is actually around 12.5", barrel length is 18 9/16" (in .46 caliber of all things).  Thirty-two inches overall-length; even with LOP lengthened to 13 1/2" it would be shorter than a Daisy Red Ryder BB gun! 

I'm going to have to build one of these someday, it is just too neat not to.  I don't think it is a candidate for my carbine project though--no way to get enough weight to make recoil controllable in the larger calibers.  Maybe in .54-.58 though. . . .

Meantime, I'm off to find my copy of The Sporting Rifle and It's Projectiles. 

[Rasch Chronicles]

round ball has proven to out penetrate conical

I suggest everyone do their own research...

Best regards,
Albert “Yes, I am still in Afghanistan!” Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles™
Extreme Wild Boar Hunting, Chronicles’ Style!!!
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