Locks

[Old Ford2]

I ask this question to all the many gun builders.
Of the two major lock builders L& R  and Siler which do you prefer and why?
I'm sure there are others, please also include their names and why.
I have used both L & R and Siler and can see no difference.
Please inform?

Best regards
Old Ford

[Keb]

I use L&R over Siler because Siler does not come in the style I prefer.
I use Chambers over L&R.
I have some Chambers Round-Faced English Flintlocks on back order as we speak.

[Bill of the 45th]

Jeez,  One of those bottomless pit questions, why not also ask if the decision is affected by the golden mean as well'  I don't have a favorite, my decision is based on the design of the whole rifle.  I do like the late Ketland by Chambers, as it fits the style of the guns I mostly try, and build.

Bill

[Pete G.]

L & R has some unique styles, but I will chose one of Jim Chamber's locks above all others. They just about all need a little tuning, but the deluxe Siler has features not found elswhere.

[smylee grouch]

Chambers Siler, Some L&R Perc. and Davis makes some very good locks too. As others have said it depends on the build.   Smylee

[smallpatch]

Definitely Chamber's first, Davis second, M&G third, L& R last.  I still use a few of their smaller locks,like the Manton and Bailles, now if they'd just work out their mainspring issues, I'd probably use more.

[Dphariss]

Depends on what you are making, for a late flint pistol this L&R (#1700) is an extremely good choice.

HOWEVER. Someone at L&R has changed the cock mould so the cock needs to have some metal removed from the "stop" on the back and sometimes it may take a lot of work to make "right".
For a pistol or small rifle post 1780 its a great lock. In pistols or rifles it jars the gun very little and this is a plus.
This was the last one I used in the pistol above and the angled tumbler hole made it impossible to get proper sear engagement. The one I used the year previous only needed the cock modified. I did re-arch the main spring on both locks and IIRC the frizzen spring as well. If you anneal the frizzen to engrave OIL QUENCH to harden.





For a typical Germanic Kentucky lock? One of the Chambers Silers would not bother even looking elsewhere.
I trust Chambers.

Dan

[Bob Roller]

I have been buying the externals from L&R for years with the frizzen and frizzen spring installed and have developed precision mechanisms for the Bailes or small Manton and the Ashmore (flint Hawken)as well as the Durs Egg. I pay $75 for the externals and do NOT add any profit and the labor for the mechanisms is $140 +$6 for Priority Mail with delivery confirmation. The $75 to be paid up front and the remainder ONLY AFTER the job is done.
I also own the moulds for the original Bailes lock that are about 50 years old but the parts that exist from them belong to a German customer that pays me $300 each for locks finished from them so I won't sell them.
Bob Roller

[Mike Brooks]

I use Chambers or Davis depending on what I'm building.

[JB2]

Dan, if you have more pics, I'd be very interested in the process you went thru to correct that lock-plate.  Not to villify any particular supplier, but just as one way to correct an issue.  A seperate thread perhaps?

[Frank]

I use Chambers or Davis depending on what I'm building.

Yep, Chambers or Davis. No L&Rs for me.

[Old Ford2]

Thank you all for the responses

Old Ford

[wattlebuster]

I like chambers but the 2 best sparkers I own are Caywoods

[Dphariss]

Dan, if you have more pics, I'd be very interested in the process you went thru to correct that lock-plate.  Not to villify any particular supplier, but just as one way to correct an issue.  A seperate thread perhaps?

Clamped a large carbon "brush" from an electric motor to the face of the plate. Welded it with my MIG welder then faced it smooth.
Reinstalled the bridle and drilled a pilot hole though the bridle using a drill that was a tight fit in the hole.
I then drilled a hole then reamed it. I happened to have a reamer that would match the tumbler shaft after I had chucked it in the lathe and trued it up. I.E. casting flaws turned off.
Its really a pretty simple fix. 
This is really one of the best designs available. Its a 1780s English lock can't remember the original makers name but its not  Manton.
But for the basic "buy a lock and install it user" it may not be the best idea. Might be best to buy it from Bob Roller per his post in this thread which might be the best option.
Dan

[Bob Roller]

Possibly a Bailes.In modern made locks they appear to be nearly identical. As I said earlier. I own the moulds that make the plate,cock and frizzen that used an old Bailes as masters. It is not a lock for a beginner and there are several hours of detailing to do before a lock can be started using these parts. The three L&R locks I also mentioned when made with a close tolerance mechanism and forged springs will perform as they should. There is a BIG difference in actually making a lock mechanism and assembling one from castings..One is geared to a specific price and the other isn't.
Also,in the American building scheme of making a muzzle loader,the lock HAD to be the cheapest component regardless of ignition be it flint or percussion. The European market is vastly different and a look at their magazines such as DWJ and Visier will show this.

Bob Roller

[Dphariss]

The cheap Birmingham locks generally available and used were the reason that the American Fur Company used to specifically tell Henry for example to be very careful in the selection of locks using only the best.
But even then the best was not what one would find on a Manton or some such.
A long time friend of mine from the previous generation (from mine) thinks many of them had soft internals.
Back in the days of the old Buckskin Report someone sent J Baird a box full of old "new stock" Golcher (IIRC) locks that were just junk. I had occasion back about 30 years to examine a Connestoga Rifle Works (Leman) FL  rifle in unfired condition the lock was marked H E Leman 1840. Did not get to remove it from the stock but I would have been surprised if it would fire reliably. Junk.
But Americans, in general, have always been notoriously cheap in such things.
Dan.

[JTR]

Leman sold what must have been thousands of rifles over the years. I doubt they would have sold that well if the locks hadn't functioned reliably.
John

[Bob Roller]

Most of the "Leman"type rifles were hunting guns and seldom used beyond that purpose and the wear on the lock which was almost always a single position tumbler type would have little real wear but the ones seen today are usually dead from rust but I have seen them in wretched condtion that would still fire a cap. Also,most of them that had double set triggers could not be cocked without setting the triggers,something today no range officer would allow if he knew it.
Once in a while a target/hunting rifle from the Northeast is seen with a higher than average quality of lock but it appears that most of them have vanished into collections long ago and are seldom seen today.

Bob Roller

[Nate McKenzie]

I'm surprised that no one pointed out that Siler is not a lock maker.  Siler parts from Chambers are assembled by many different companies, but the best in my book are the ones assembled by Chambers.