Inletting little curvy inlays.

[Roger B]

My project hates me.  It's been fighting me ever since I started it  I tried inletting one of those Vincent barrel pin inlays and it whipped me again.  I had it nearly in when the inlet started chipping all over the place and wound looking like a beaver put it in.  Ugly.  Do you guys have any techniques for inletting these compound curve inlays that I can use?
Roger B.

[docone]

Inlays take a touch. I am in the process of making inlays myself.
First, I engrave before I inlet.
Second, I bevel the edge of the inlay, making it smaller in the inlay, larger to the outside. I find that allows me to "set" the inlay into the piece. When I do an inlay, I also prefer to make things "proud", then fit.
I do not like doing things twice if I can avoid it.
Keep the tools sharp! Cut the inlay inboard of the line, then trim the line. This takes the stress off the opening. Go slow, go small. You can always remove, but replacing is difficult.
I bet it will look beautiful when it is done. It will be worth all the fuss.
Good luck.

[FALout]

Curves aren't so bad, the inside corners can be really rough.  As already stated, taper the edges if you haven't already done so, make them smooth with no file marks, less likely to grab wood.  Sometimes it's not the style of inlay, but the wood your inletting to, some wood just likes to chip off little pieces.  When you do get a little piece of wood wanting to lift, after getting the inlay out, use a sharpened toothpick to apply glue, wait or move to the next inlay.  Sometimes you just have to walk away, come back to it with a different frame of mind, then things might go better.  Good luck

[Don Getz]

I guess that's why I have gone to Barn Guns.    Hate inlays, mainly because I'm not good at it.   Years ago I built a copy of a  Joe Long, complete with Fish inlays out along the barrel, brass inlay out over the comb.............never again.......Don

[Acer Saccharum]

I can't imagine installing the inlays that inhabit the Metropolitan Museum's Jacob Kuntz rifle.

I believe that Kuntz engraved much of the inlay BEFORE installing them, only touchup after installation. The matl he used was very thin, I am going to guess around .03 max for the patchbox.

Note all the lines that run OFF the brass, top of eagle's head has a curved line which surely, MY engraving tool would have fallen off the edge of the brass. Numerous examples of that when you look at the leaf edges to the left of the eagle.  Another eagle on the far left has a lower beak that extends beyond the engraved line. This tell-tale sign says that not only was the box engraved off the gun, but also engraved BEFORE being cut out from the sheet. Maybe Kuntz was the engraver, and did Rupp's engraving for him, and Rupp stocked Kuntz' guns.



Note the nail that was flush at one time, and then engraved with the design. The lines across the nailhead do not match perfectly what is underneath.



So, yes, I think you CAN engrave and then install, but you'd best use thin material and LOTS of nails to hold the sucker down. You can't file the work flush with the gun, it has to go in in the finished state, after the staining and scrubbing is all done with. I don't believe Kuntz' inlays were ever completely flush with the surface of the gun.

Just ramblin'

Tom

[Acer Saccharum]

Perhaps Taylor will chime in about this; he's made a gorgeous Jacob Kuntz. Did he engrave the box on the rifle, or off? That is the question.

Tom

Taylor's blogspot: http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2009/07/d-taylor-sapergia.html

[Dave B]

Thanks for posting the photos Tom. It is encouraging to me to see the tight corners of the patch box inletting are only partially notched by engraving or filing. Note the area in the upper left on the bottom photo. Where the wood is going up to the brass you can see the inlet is square but the use of blacking and the engraved section dropping off the edge has created the look of the inlet being very finely pointed.  The same for the beaks of the Eagles. the inlet wood stops at the opening of the beak and the filling of the inlet with blacking that makes it look like the wood goes back to the tongue. It still is allot of work but its not as technical as your eye first believes

[Acer Saccharum]

It looks like a lot of 'Goop' was used to transition the brass to the wood. Oh, blasphemy!

Remember that these things are made to appeal to the eye, they are works of art. Perfect workmanship was not the highest constraint on the list. Probably first was the overall appearance and 'look' of the object.

That said, the workmanship is of very high quality, rivaled by few in America. The artistry of Jacob Kuntz is rivaled by none, in my opinion. But that's just my opinion, and a very heated discussion could be generated if I said that. Indeed!

Tom

To get back to the thread, does anyone here engrave their inlays and then install them?

[Acer Saccharum]

Note the profusion of nails in these inlays. ( I consider a patchbox an inlay)





The brass just ahead of the guard extension, a transition inlay from lock panels to grip. It looks like Jacob had to wrestle this one down with a gazillion nails. These nails look like they were NOT filed flush with the brass, but peened in place, then engraved to match existing artwork. Points off at Dixon's.

[T*O*F]

It looks like a lot of 'Goop' was used to transition the brass to the wood.

I would posit that it's either shellac stick or pine pitch heated with ground charcoal.  Both methods were commonly used to fill small imperfections.

[tallbear]

Roger
You talking about little buggers like this


Give me a couple of hours and I will thow together a quick tutorial how I do it.

Mitch Yates

[tallbear]

Hi Roger
Here is how I do it.I did this rather quickly but I hope it helps you out.

Lay out you inlay on your metal.


Clean up your inlay,file a slight bevel,curve the inlay to the shape of your stock(I use various gouge cuts in a piece of hard maple)and secure the inlay to the stock.


Scribe around the inlay with an exacto knife.


I then use a several lense shaped chisels to outline the inlay.I set the edge of the chisel in the knife cut and stamp all around the inlay.






I then use a small gouge to relieve the wood inside the inlet.This decreases the resistance when I go to the flat chisel and it sets a uniform depth for the inlet


Since I do my engraving on the gun I spot the inlet in with spotting compound so I'm sure the inlay is completely supported.


Inlet ready for inlay.


Inlay nailed home.


Inlay ready for engraving.


Done


Hope this helps you out!!
Mitch Yates

[docone]

Well shown.
Not to engrave! I have put in two on my "Hawken". Actually a CVA Mountain Rifle I picked up to play with.
Got the back two wedge escutchins in, now to sand flush and engrave. Haven't found a pattern yet, but the sanding will give me time to think.
I like simple.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I've posted these images before, but they are applicable again in this thread.  This is a series of photos showing how I designed (read copied) the inlay, cut it out, and installed it.  Acer's post regarding Kuntz and his likely method of working with an inlay, is very interesting.  But one has to go with the method that works best for them.  In my build, I inlet the brass (.032" thick) and engraved it right on the stock.  There are places where my engraving comes perilously close to the edge, and there are gaps too.  Sucks to be mortal!
Tallbear's tutorial clearly shows the process...nice work!

[Acer Saccharum]

Taylor, you engraved that in place, did you not? Very, very nicely, I might add.

Thanks to you and Mitch for posting your methods.

Where's the epoxy, you guys? Did you forget, -or- did you not use any? 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Tom, there's no epoxy on the Kuntz rifle, but I confess to having used it on others, and won't hesitate to do it again, if I need to fill a nasty oops.  Yes, I engraved the inlays on the stock with a hammer and chisel...still haven't fired up the Gravermeister!  I wish Cody lived closer.  Thanks for the compliments.

[tallbear]

Where's the epoxy, you guys? Did you forget, -or- did you not use any? 

No wooferdoofer(As an old friend called it)/epoxy needed in most cases.When you stamp in with the chisels I use you wedge over some wood that swells to fill "most" voids when you whisker the stock.

Mitch

[Acer Saccharum]

That is a great technique, Mitch.

I have used epoxy when needed, and will continue to do so. A gun is not ruined if it needs a fix. When I make a mistake, I usually get *#)*^~ off, walk away, steam, brew, and have a few good sleeps before the answer comes how to fix something. SOmetimes you don't get a 100% fix, so you you make the best of what you got.

[tallbear]

Not criticizing the use of gap fillers,I hav'nt  built a gun without making some ooooooops somewhere along the line

[Acer Saccharum]

Bragging wins no points on this site, Big Bear.

[Roger B]

I really appreciate the tips, guys, especially the Tallbear tutorial. I can probably piece in a couple of places around my first inlay and then start the next one in better order.   Do people ever mix inlays on the fore end?  To avoid putting end this same inlay 8 times, I was going to alternate it with a long, simple, panel inlay.
Many thanks,
Roger B.

[omark]

i know of a jacob long with brass furniture and silver inlays. i assume thats what you mean.   mark

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Roger, on a rifle that has four keys or pins, often you see the first one is a different shape that the upper three.  But that still means that six of the eight are going to be the same.  Using silver inlays on a rifle with brass hardware is quite acceptable.

[Acer Saccharum]

Using silver inlays on a rifle with brass hardware is quite acceptable.

I prefer the 'mixed metals' of brass, iron and silver. It adds character, but that's my personal preference.

[smart dog]

Hi Roger,
I love to mix my materials:









dave