Author Topic: Unmarked Barrel Question  (Read 9872 times)

jafo20

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Unmarked Barrel Question
« on: December 27, 2011, 09:32:21 PM »
I picked up a new-old stock barrel that is in the white and unmarked. My question is has anyone ran accross unmarked barrels and is this common for new barrels to be unmarked?

35" long
15/16 wide
5/8x18 breech
50 cal.


Thanks

coutios

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2011, 10:11:04 PM »
Is it rifled? Some barrel makers will supply a smooth bore to someone who is cutting their own rifling and they will not mark the blank.. Maybe it was cut off at the breech taking the name with it...
Just a few thoughts


Regards
Dave

jafo20

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2011, 10:56:35 PM »
Yes....rifled. Thanks

Offline Lucky R A

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2011, 03:37:42 AM »
     35" is a rather unusual length.  Parallel sided barrels usually come 36" or 42" long.   It is possible that it was cut and rebreached, and in the process the makers mark was removed.   
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2011, 03:56:15 AM »
Both Dixie and Numrich sold a ton of unmarked rifle barrels over the years.  They are relatively common and I think Numrich still has some available.
Dave Kanger

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willyr

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2011, 07:09:07 PM »
I think that's going to be a Montana Rifle Barrel Company barrel ( Jerry Cunningham). They were offered in both 35" and 42" lengths and I do not recall any markings.
Be Well,
Bill

76 warlock

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2011, 07:11:13 AM »
I agree I have several 35" Montana barrels and they were not marked.

Offline Tim Hamblen

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2011, 05:52:05 PM »
Yep, probably Montana. A lot if not all Numrichs came not threaded at the breech. Jerry never marked one that I saw. I always thought it might have helped his marketing some.

Steve-In

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2011, 09:18:11 AM »
At 35" I would lean toward Montana.  The Montana barrels are milled octagon and have crisp corners and the bore is centered at both ends.   Numrichs will be from cold rolled octagon stock as was Douglas and some Dixies.  They are smooth and the corners are slightly rounded.  Numrich always seemed to have a problem with getting the bore centered, Douglas was better.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2011, 04:39:28 PM »
The octagon cold drawn steel for these barrels was a 12L14 or Ledloy. Bad idea from the outset but easy to drill and rifle.The Douglas barrel marked "Premium"were those that the bore was very close to center on both ends and I have seen others that had the run out used as the breech end and threaded.
The Gunsmith at Willaimsburg,George Suiter worked for Douglas and he will tell you the same thing. Fred DePoy who was a long time employee there told me that Douglas was ready to stop muzzle loader barrel production anyway and the barrel blowing up with bad hand injuries simply accelerated that procedure. The barrel that burst was a 13/16x45 which in my mind is proportionate to a 15/16x50 calber.
One simple barnyard test is to put one of these barrels in a horizontal bandsaw without a control on the rate of feed on the blade and see how quickly it will slice thru the barrel. I have such a saw and the blade speed is 160 feet per minute,the blade is 24 teeth per inch and the arm carrying the blade is gravity reactive and it will cut thru one of these barrels in seconds.
I talked at length with the metallurgist that testified against Douglas in the law suit that followed and he said that there are too many people that still think you can't get enough black powder in a barrel to burst it and therein lies the danger,especially when coupled to improper material.
The barrels now made at Douglas Barrels are all nitro powder barrels and they have always been made from certified barrel materials.

Bob Roller

Tony Clark

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2011, 05:01:25 PM »
The octagon cold drawn steel for these barrels was a 12L14 or Ledloy. Bad idea from the outset but easy to drill and rifle.The Douglas barrel marked "Premium"were those that the bore was very close to center on both ends and I have seen others that had the run out used as the breech end and threaded.
The Gunsmith at Willaimsburg,George Suiter worked for Douglas and he will tell you the same thing. Fred DePoy who was a long time employee there told me that Douglas was ready to stop muzzle loader barrel production anyway and the barrel blowing up with bad hand injuries simply accelerated that procedure. The barrel that burst was a 13/16x45 which in my mind is proportionate to a 15/16x50 calber.
One simple barnyard test is to put one of these barrels in a horizontal bandsaw without a control on the rate of feed on the blade and see how quickly it will slice thru the barrel. I have such a saw and the blade speed is 160 feet per minute,the blade is 24 teeth per inch and the arm carrying the blade is gravity reactive and it will cut thru one of these barrels in seconds.
I talked at length with the metallurgist that testified against Douglas in the law suit that followed and he said that there are too many people that still think you can't get enough black powder in a barrel to burst it and therein lies the danger,especially when coupled to improper material.
The barrels now made at Douglas Barrels are all nitro powder barrels and they have always been made from certified barrel materials.

Bob Roller


:') not sure If I should ask this.. but Bob, do you not think 12L14 is a suitable barrel material? when I was trying to make a reproduction of an original bonewtiz in .50 caliber it was hard to find a barrel. Wouldn't it depend on how deep the rifling was? Bob, do you think 12L14 is inferior to wrought iron which was used in original barrels?

Bob are y
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 05:08:04 PM by Tony Clark »

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2011, 05:25:29 PM »
Bob......you are partially correct, but the reason that Douglas barrel blew up was because of the inclusions, or cracks that
existed from the octagon shaping of the barrel blank.   You can get this in the cold drawing process.   It can happen even
in a round blank.   I am not going to get into a barrel steel controversy again, but, to make rash statements that 12L14
steel is no good for barrel making is a lot of hogwash, we have nearly 30,000 barrels out there to prove it.......Don

Tony Clark

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2011, 05:32:53 PM »
 I am not going to get into a barrel steel controversy again, but, to make rash statements that 12L14
steel is no good for barrel making is a lot of hogwash, we have nearly 30,000 barrels out there to prove it.......Don

I'm already sorry Don for questioning it... I know what the deal is and the quality of your barrels. I guess I was kind of surprised that Bob would say that... and he is an old timer (no offense just respect) so I am wondering why his experience makes him say that??

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2011, 06:12:06 PM »
It takes one tragedy to lay waste to a lifetime of effort. I have seen several failures with this material that did not end so badly,the most absurd one came to Bill Large and it wasn't his barrel but the whole top flat had lifted to the shape of an eliptical configuration. The man that owned it wanted a new barrel made out of something a bit more robust.
Yes,I am an old timer,old geezer or whatever else you can think of and everyone who knows me knows that if a better material is available for whatever application,I am for it once it is proven or has been proven in the past. I feel that such knowledge as I have may be of benefit to those who haven't had the benefit of 60 years experience with black powder guns,both muzzle and breech loading.
<cracks and fissures even in round blanks>
Does this also occur in certified for gun barrel use materials as well? I mentioned Douglas because it was widely publicized and other than Jim McLemore,I don't really know what is used today for black powder barrels.Jim uses 4150. Green Mountain used or maybe uses 1137M.the "M" meaning altered for a specific use,gun barrels,axles,etc,
Anyone who wants to,can call a steel mill and ask if 12L or any other leaded stock is recommended for any gun barrels and ask to speak to the plant metallurgist,NOT the guy or girl who answers the phone.
 
Bob Roller















Tony Clark

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2011, 06:18:29 PM »
Bob, I'm wondering... do you think that 12L14 is any more dangerous than the wrought iron 18th century makers used to make so many of the barrels in the original firearms we admire and try to so hard to reproduce?

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2011, 06:24:03 PM »
test message
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Tony Clark

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2011, 06:25:28 PM »

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2011, 06:27:38 PM »
I am testing with this message. Will someone that has had problems with retiring the "new" flag on posts let me know if they have problems retiring the "new" icon. tdg23113@verizon.net

The hosting company has changed the caching on this particular URL to see if the problem is resolved by the change.

Thanks
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2011, 08:16:21 PM »
putting in a new reply to test the new message flag
Let me know if this one retires correctly.
Dennis
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2011, 08:18:42 PM »
Bob, I'm wondering... do you think that 12L14 is any more dangerous than the wrought iron 18th century makers used to make so many of the barrels in the original firearms we admire and try to so hard to reproduce?

I'm not Bob but the letters below should be required reading for anyone interested in this subject.
I am not a metallurgist. The following are things I have learned from various sources over the past 30+ years of interest in the subject. You may consider it opinion if you like.

"Best" iron actually makes good ML barrels. But "best" is a key word here.
Look at the inclusions (called "grays" in the trade from my reading) found in barrels pictured in "Colonial Frontier Guns" By Hamilton.
In the 1830s W. Greener was complaining of the poor quality export barrels being made.
Making barrels from old wagon tires, for example, is probably not using "best iron" as Springfield did for rifle musket barrels during the Civil War.
Inclusions were a major problem with iron that was not properly processed to remove them. But like making high quality steel today the process was expensive.... English "damascus" and "twist" SHOULD be very good but the care in making the steel and in the welding is critical. Good damascus barrels are often proved for nitro shotgun use. English machine made damascus being equal to the late 19th century "Whitworth" steel etc.
Modern steels with high levels of lead, sulfur and phosphorous have problems with inclusions too. Free machining steels like leaded screw stock are relatively heavily leaded, and resulfurized and have high levels of phosphorous. Then they are cold rolled to make them brittle, this increases the tensile numbers but does NOT make the steel stronger when used as a gun barrel and invariably REDUCES its tolerance for internal pressure and shock loading and can cause brittle fracture with fragmentation. Nor is the level of inclusions controlled in any way or even tested. So some bars are relatively "good" and others really scary. Its usually impossible to tell one from the other by eyeball. A piece of steel can be riddled with inclusions and still look just like a piece of steel that is properly heat treated and certified for very low levels of inclusions as the higher grade steels are. Think "best iron" vs wagon tire grade iron.

This letter was sent to John Baird when he was publishing the "Buckskin Report" and the text was published in the magazine.



And these from the same time frame.
This one needs careful reading as well.





Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2011, 08:37:06 PM »
I have never heard of an old RIFLE barrel letting go but then I never saw an antique barrel 13/16 across the flats in 45 caliber + groove depth. Military rifles while thin at the muzzle usually had a pretty hefty breech. I think the 13/16 and smaller barrels may have come along after the muzzle loader was considered as a relic. Modern or semi-modern equipment made these little ones possible and Bill Large and others made a bunch of them.
I did blow the drum and nipple out of a barrel when I was a kid,about 16 I think but that was stupidity on my part for firing a gun I knew nothing about.
Another thing that has to be considred is that there are still people who want to "magnumize" a black powder rifle with a heavy charge of powder and that is a potential for failure in itself. My  maternal grandfather was born in 1873 and he told me the muzzle loader was a common hunting rifle even when the fast firing breech loaders were easily obtained. He told me of a man who today would be considered as mentally challenged was talked into firing a "polkstalk shotgun"which was what Dixie sold in the 1950's,brought in from Belgium. The local morons had loaded the barrel half full of black powder and a lot of lead shot and they offered this poor man 50 cents to shoot it. He did,it blew apart and killed him. That was an inferior gun loaded by cruel and wretched people who wanted to hurt a less than able person. As I said earlier,I have never heard of a barrel opening up on a conventional rifle and later,cast steel barrels came into the mix and many makers of target and hunting rifles used them and I have never heard of one blowing up.
To get back to your question about leaded steel,I do know that no mill will certify or stand behind the use of them for guns of any kind.
Here's another thing grandpa Taylor showed me. He took a ball of about 45 caliber,laid it in the palm of his hand and poured powder over it and when a small cone had formed,hiding the ball,THAT was the load to use in the absence of a better way to measure it. I have used it and it works,not a convenient thing but workable.
Can you send those pages on barrel and other steels to me at <wvgzr@webtv.net> I am having a hard time reading them s a posting here. I know I have seen them before but a refresher is always welcome to me.
Bob Roller

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Unmarked Barrel Question
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2011, 08:45:20 PM »
Hi Bob
They came through a little smaller than I expected but may print out OK.
Sending them e-mail too.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine