Suggestions For My First Build?

[ChrisHarris]

I want to learn the art of gun building.  I was thinking about a Traditions Trapper pistol for my first one.  I realize these are essentially an assembly, more than a build.  But is there anything useful that I would learn during that assembly that would carry forward to the next project?

I'm pretty handy with tools.  I am very mechanically minded.  Studied mechanical engineering in school (never graduated) and I currently work as a mechanical estimator for a piping contractor.  I rebuild my own car engines and do all my own wrenching on power tools, vehicles etc..  I've been building balsa and plywood model airplanes (radio control) for about 15yrs.  I'm familiar with some minor wood working and fabrication of various metal parts and linkages.

Just never built a gun.

I'd like to build a Jaeger style .54 percussion for myself, but thats a major project for down the road.  I don't even know where to start.  No idea what kind of lock or triggers to buy.  No idea how to inlet a lock.  Gotta learn somewhere.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[Larry Luck]

Chris,

Welcome to ALR.

Since you asked the question about suggestions, I'll give you my perspective.

My first build was a Connecticut Valley Arms .45 cal flintlock that I built in college.  A good friend from PA had built a brass-barrelled flintlock pistol in his high school shop class that I thought was the neatest thing I'd seen.  (Back in the day when a pound of black powder in a dorm room did not result in federal time.)  So I bought the kit and built it.  I keep it in the shop as an object lesson.

If you are mechanically inclined, I'd not expend the cost of that kit ($279.99 at Cabelas) and would do one of a couple alternatives.

My first recommendation is to purchase a Jim Chambers kit.  They are the gold standard of ML kits.  They are not cheap, but they are not made of cheap components.  His pistol is a beaut, if you want a pistol, and here is the link: 
http://www.flintlocks.com/pistols.htm
It is a third more than the Traditions kit you are looking to build, but compare the two and there is no comparison.
His rifles are both beautiful and historically authentic.  More expensive yet, but compared to your time, the cost of the kits or the components is a small percentage.

If you want to jump into the Jaeger, here is a kit from Dunlop Woodcrafts: 
http://www.dunlapwoodcrafts.com/ComponentSets/JaegerRifle.php

As an intermediate alternative, you might consider a supplier like Tennessee Valley Manufacturing, which makes a couple very decent kits.  My second build was a modified Late Lancaster kit.  Here is a link 
http://www.tennesseevalleymanufacturing.com/catalog.php?category=all

There are a bunch of vendors who can sell you a kit that (I believe) you will be happier with than the Traditions.   But you will still have a ball with that kit, if you choose it.

Hope this helps,

Larry Luck

[ChrisHarris]

Those are great links!!  Thank you Larry.  Could not find the pricing on Jim Chambers Kentucky pistol kit.  I'd really like a trappers style pistol.  I just like the way it has that little nub of wood on the back of the handle.  It don't have to be a Traditions kit.  I just like that style of gun compared to a Kentucky or Pioneer style.

I'm afraid to ask what that Jaeger kit costs.     It sure is a good lookin' gun.

I'm not afraid to pay for quality, but I do have to be reasonable about what I spend.  I'm not rich.  A $350 pistol is not out of the question.  But a $2500 Jaeger is WAAAAAY out of the question for my budget.

I currently have a DixieGunWorks (Pedersoli) Jaeger flinter in 54 caliber.  But it's got the 1:24 fast twist barrel and I really want something more suited to round balls.  I thought about spending the $750 for their Jaeger percussion kit and then buying a 54 cal Green Mountain Barrel and paying somebody to whack a few inches off the end.  GMB has a 1" barrel thats 54 cal and 36 inches long with 1:70 twist.  I don't know how hard it would be to whack that barrel off and make it fit the Jaeger stock.  I certainly can't do it by myself.  Don't have those kinds of tools.

[Tommy Bruce]

Chris, RE Davis and Track of the Wolf also has Jaeger kits with 31" swamped (tapered and flared) barrels which are much more balanced than a straight barrel.  Might be worth a look for you. 

[Mike Brooks]

Pistols are not easy to build. I suggest a long gun for a first try. Look into a North West trade gun, not so over whelming.

[ChrisHarris]

I like that Jaeger from RE Davis.  It's the right caliber and the right price with brass hardware.  But it's beyond my comfort level right now.  For a guy who bought his first muzzle loader only a couple weeks ago, a kit of that complexity is probably not a good idea.

[Jim Kibler]

Where are you located Chris?  Perhaps you might be near someone who could give you a bit of guidance.  If you are good with your hands and have some mechanical ability, that is a good start.  Also, there are some books and videos that would be a big help in getting started.

[ChrisHarris]

I'm in Liberty, MO.  It's just a little north of Kansas City.

There is a guy who teaches gun building, but he's in Holden, MO.  But thats quite a drive after work.  Classes are Wednesday and Thursday evening.

[Ky-Flinter]

Hi ya Chris,

Welcome to ALR.  Since you're new to long rifle building, I would suggest some books that have been of great help to me.

Recreating the American Longrifle by William Buchelle, George Shumway, and Peter Alexander.  This book may be ordered directly from George Shumway Publisher, www.shumwaypublisher.com, and many building supply companies.

The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle by Chuck Dixon available from the Dixon Muzzleloading Shop, www.dixonmuzzleloading.com

The Gunsmith of Grenville County - Building the American Longririfle by Peter A. Alexander.  Unfortunately, this book is currently out of print.

Of these 3 building books, Recreating the American Longrifle is my favorite. 

-Ron

[ChrisHarris]

Hi ya Chris,

Welcome to ALR.  Since you're new to long rifle building, I would suggest some books that have been of great help to me.

Recreating the American Longrifle by William Buchelle, George Shumway, and Peter Alexander.  This book may be ordered directly from George Shumway Publisher, www.shumwaypublisher.com, and many building supply companies.

The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle by Chuck Dixon available from the Dixon Muzzleloading Shop, www.dixonmuzzleloading.com

The Gunsmith of Grenville County - Building the American Longririfle by Peter A. Alexander.  Unfortunately, this book is currently out of print.

Of these 3 building books, Recreating the American Longrifle is my favorite. 

-Ron

Thank you KY-Flinter.

I'll order those books this week.  Thats a great place to start.  I always do better when I read something, rather than watch a video or listen to somebody talk in person.  My brain process's information better when I read it.

[FALout]

Just because a pistol is smaller, doesn't make it any easier to build.  They can be very hard to hold on to while working.  Get the books in hand, read them, see what you will need to do most of the work.  When I started out building, I didn't have much in tools or place to work, those things came with time.  No matter what you decide to build, research it, study any pics you can find, note the style of lock and the architecure (shaping) of the stock and way the furniture (thimbles,triggerguard,...) looks, then try to apply that to whatever you do build, even the Traditions pistol if thats what you choose to build.  Good luck on what do choose to work on first.

[Don Getz]

When you talk about building a Jager rifle, I assume you like the short barrel.    If you want a rifle of this size, I would
recommnd an English sporting rifle.   They are not only lighter in weight, but feel great when shouldered.   I think Dave
Keck has a pattern of one that I designed, it does use one of the standard Jager barrels and you do have a choice of
locks to use with it,,,,,,,,,,,,Don

[James Wilson Everett]

Chris,

I agree with Don's comment above.  I do love Jaeger rifles, but some people think that they feel like a pregnant sow on the shoulder.  Try to actually handle one before spending the effort to make one. 

Jim Everett

[Dphariss]

Just because a pistol is smaller, doesn't make it any easier to build.  They can be very hard to hold on to while working.  Get the books in hand, read them, see what you will need to do most of the work.  When I started out building, I didn't have much in tools or place to work, those things came with time.  No matter what you decide to build, research it, study any pics you can find, note the style of lock and the architecure (shaping) of the stock and way the furniture (thimbles,triggerguard,...) looks, then try to apply that to whatever you do build, even the Traditions pistol if thats what you choose to build.  Good luck on what do choose to work on first.

The idea that a rifle or long gun is easier to build escapes me.
Pistols ARE easier.

Far less shaping, no buttplate to inlet, only one upper pipe.
I have built 9-10 pistols that I remember and it never occurred to me that they were harder to build than a rifle.
They also require far less space.

First build?
Build something simple to get your feet wet but not so simple that there is no learning curve at all.

Dan

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Chris,

I will share with you my first build experience.  I am in the process of finishing it right now, and have been working on it almost a year.  I was first looking at kits, but had trouble coming up wth that amount of cash at one time.  So I started to buy parts that went together.  I also started gathering tools together.  This is after reading about building for years.

The problem that I had with kits is that what is left undone was the part that I was most uncomfortable with.  That being the metal work and hole drilling.  The stock shaping and wood work I felt comfortable with.

So I split the difference, researched what I wanted to build and got a stock from Dave Keck with the barrel inlet.  The stock was roughed out, but I was able to adjust it some to fit what I wanted.  I got to inlet my own lock and buttplate etc.  Which was fun.  I also had to drill all the holes in the matel, which I had never doen before and sometimes that was not as much fun.

My point is think about what you feel comfortable doing, or want to do and find a kit that fits that or go another route. 

Coryjoe 

[Pete G.]

If you want a Jaeger why not look at Dixie Gun Works' Jaeger kit. I think it is kit form of the Pedersoli gun, which means that it is basically assembly and finishing. Not too complicated to get discouraged and you end up with what you wanted to begin with. Personally I don't care much for shooting a single shot pistol, must be froom growing up watching all those cowboys with 42 shooters.....

[ChrisHarris]

If you want a Jaeger why not look at Dixie Gun Works' Jaeger kit. I think it is kit form of the Pedersoli gun, which means that it is basically assembly and finishing. Not too complicated to get discouraged and you end up with what you wanted to begin with. Personally I don't care much for shooting a single shot pistol, must be froom growing up watching all those cowboys with 42 shooters.....

I already stated  in my earlier post that I have a DixieGunWorks Pedersoli Jaeger in 54 caliber.  I'm well aware you can buy the percussion kit for about $750.  But it's still got a 1:24 twist barrel.  I have no doubt it will be very useful come next deer season.  I plan to work up a load using conicals and 2F or 3F Goex.  I expect it to be deadly accurate out to 100 - even 125yds with a conical.  But it's simply NOT a round ball tack driver, and thats what I WANT for paper targets at the local club.  The guys at the local club are a fun bunch and I want to go and shoot with them every chance I get.  But it's no fun shooting a gun thats only accurate to 35yds.  I want to COMPETE with these guys and up the competition.  I enjoy the competition.  I need a gun thats a solid shooter.

I'm not about to shoot heavy conicals out of my gun just to compete in local club matches.  It would end up costing me about $1 per shot with conicals.  I can justify that expense to work up a load and use it for putting meat in the freezer.  I can't justify that cost to plink targets.

I currently have a DixieGunWorks (Pedersoli) Jaeger flinter in 54 caliber.  But it's got the 1:24 fast twist barrel and I really want something more suited to round balls.

I like the feel of the Jaeger rifle.  I just wanted something to shoot round balls instead of conicals.  Yes, it does shoot round balls.  But with a 1:24 twist, we all know it's a waste of time to try and get it to hold tight groups out to 100yds.  At 25yds, it's VERY accurate with a .530 ball over an ox yoke pillow tick patch and 55gr of 3F Goex.  I got no complaints.  The groups open up at 50yds and they only get worse from there.  I've had a chance to shoot it on private land with a guy that I work with.  We've had the gun strapped to a giant shooting sled and weighted down with lead ballast.  100% bench shooting and I'm being very anal about how I load and prepare for each shot.  Taking meticulous notes.  Repeat the process the same exact way every time.  It's simply NOT accurate out past 35yds.  At 75yds I can't keep 10 shots on a paper plate.  Maybe 7 or 8 of 10 shots will hit the paper plate at 75yds.  At 100yds I can get 5 or 6 out of 10 to hit a paper plate.  NOT good enough.  Have not shot a conical out of it yet.  Wanted to give it every opportunity to change my mind with round balls first.  Shot it with all kinds of different loads.  Different patches.  Even tried .535 balls.  Different lubes.  I shot the snot out of it.  Close to 120 balls.  Over and over and over.  Same way every time until I was convinced that concoction was no good.  Then change the mix.  Different powder.  One thing at a time.  No rapid changes or changing multiple things at once.  One change at a time and shoot the snot out of it.  Still not accurate enough.  I have close to 10 pages of notes of all the different load combinations, balls, patches, lubes, bore swabbing,,,,, you name it.

The 'fat sow' feel of a Jaeger fits my fat hands and short arms perfectly.  The gun feels hefty and solid against my shoulder.  It kicks like a pillow case full of cotton, and my body enjoys that very much.

I still don't like the idea of a rifle for my first build, but have not made a decision yet.  I thought a pistol would be simpler and I really dig the looks of that Traditions Trapper 50.

I got an email from Dunlap Woodcrafts about their Jaeger and I might buy that as a 2nd or 3rd project.  The price is a little high for me right now, but it's not unreasonable for the quality of the parts in the kit.  It's just a bit much for a 1st project.  Both in cost and complexity.

I also like the RE Davis Jaeger.  

I'm tempted to buy a beat up Thompson Center and 'rebuild' it with a nice trigger, refinish the wood and a slow twist new barrel.  They can be had for $100 or less in fair to poor condition.  Worse thing that happens is I'm out $100 and the new barrel could be sold if I screw up refinishing the stock and decide to scrap the project.

Ordering the books on Wednesday.

[Jim Kibler]

Although I'm not familiar with all the Jaeger kits available, I feel pretty safe in saying that the quality and historical accuracy will generally not be that great. 

[ChrisHarris]

Although I'm not familiar with all the Jaeger kits available, I feel pretty safe in saying that the quality and historical accuracy will generally not be that great.  

Well, I won't argue with you, because unlike many of you guys, I couldn't care less about historical accuracy.  Means nothing to me.  

[Larry Luck]

Chris,

As you get deeper into the building and study of the American longrifle and the ancestors that contributed to the evolution of that sort of gun, you may find the historical accuracy of more importance.  When I started, I didn't know anything about the history of the rifles that helped settle the colonies that became the United States.  As my interest has developed, so has my recognition of details that don't quite fit.  If a classic Mustang fan saw 1968 tail lights on a '67 car, it might result in a second glance and a shake of the head.  Sorta the same thing here.

The kits with a one-inch, parallel-sided barrel don't handle nearly as well as a tapered and flared ("swamped") barrel that is biggest at the breech, slims along the middle of the barrrel, and then flares towards the muzzle.  Compare the barrel weights for the same caliber barrels.  (You probably will have to do a weight per inch for the parallel sided barrel.)

An interesting site to find photos of Jaegers is the German auction site Hermann Historica, here is a link to one auction catalog  http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_en/online-kataloge/firearms.html

Good luck with your project.

Larry Luck